D&D (2024) All about Ardlings

[Yaarel]

@MarkB, @Ruin Explorer

"They paved paradise and put up a parking lot."

Yeah, important point. Paradise requires harmony with nature. It can orchestrate nature, but cannot violate nature. Paradise benefits from nature. It is a human symbiosis with the rest of nature.

Paradise requires effort. Traditions in various monotheisms include the sense of doing the hard work in this world and benefiting from the fruits of ones labor in the world to come.

Saliently, paradise is a place of "luxury". People create different kinds of luxuries to enjoy. This creativity for clever exquisite things is where the connotations of effort, industriousness, and technologies come in.

 

[WarDriveWorley]

Yeah, important point. Paradise requires harmony with nature. It can orchestrate nature, but cannot violate nature. Paradise benefits from nature. It is a human symbiosis with the rest of nature.

Given that the definition of paradise is "an ideal or idyllic place or state" and every person's ideal varies I think it's short sighted to claim paradise cannot "violate nature" and requires harmony with nature. There are people who find lack of nature appealing and even ideal for a peaceful existence. If there is a metaphysical paradise I'm sure there are as many variations of it as there people that have lived, some of which may be bereft of what you may consider as harmony with nature.

 

[Yaarel]

Given that the definition of paradise is "an ideal or idyllic place or state" and every person's ideal varies I think it's short sighted to claim paradise cannot "violate nature" and requires harmony with nature. There are people who find lack of nature appealing and even ideal for a peaceful existence. If there is a metaphysical paradise I'm sure there are as many variations of it as there people that have lived, some of which may be bereft of what you may consider as harmony with nature.

The terms "ideal" and "idyllic" derive from different etymologies and − in use − mean different things.

Idyllic literally means briefly poetic.

Ideal means perfect and essential.



Re the concept and connotation of paradise, it includes both natural sensuality and artificial luxury. Both nature and technology.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Given that the definition of paradise is "an ideal or idyllic place or state" and every person's ideal varies I think it's short sighted to claim paradise cannot "violate nature" and requires harmony with nature. There are people who find lack of nature appealing and even ideal for a peaceful existence. If there is a metaphysical paradise I'm sure there are as many variations of it as there people that have lived, some of which may be bereft of what you may consider as harmony with nature.

This is true but it's equally fair to note that throughout history, with depictions of paradises, whether from deep mythology, or modern literature or other media, it is pretty rare to see a paradise or attempted paradise that isn't at least in harmony with nature, if not actively a product of nature. Certainly I think most humans have a conception of paradise that centers around the natural. Generally those whose idea of paradise is something like a flat endless white plane, or a never-ending empty city or the like are depicted as adversaries of humanity as whole, or other alienated from humanity. Perhaps that's unfair and perhaps it'll change but I think it holds for the foreseeable future.

 

[WarDriveWorley]

The terms "ideal" and "idyllic" derive from different etymologies and − in use − mean different things.

Idyllic literally means briefly poetic.

Ideal means perfect and essential.



Re the concept and connotation of paradise, it includes both natural sensuality and artificial luxury. Both nature and technology.

I am familiar with both words thank you. While Idyllic can mean "related to an idyll" which is a simple poem, it also means "pleasing or picturesque in natural simplicity" as well, but none of the definitions I'm finding say it literally means "briefly poetic".

You also reiterated that "it includes both natural sensuality and artificial luxury. Both nature and technology" which I still contend that not all beings would consider both nature and technology as an ideal. There are beings that will be less favorable towards nature and those that will be less favorable towards technology.

I still think it's shortsighted to try and pigeonhole paradise.

 

[Yaarel]

I am familiar with both words thank you. While Idyllic can mean "related to an idyll" which is a simple poem, it also means "pleasing or picturesque in natural simplicity" as well, but none of the definitions I'm finding say it literally means "briefly poetic".

An "idyl" is a "brief poem". Sketchy, simple, picturesque.

You also reiterated that "it includes both natural sensuality and artificial luxury. Both nature and technology" which I still contend that not all beings would consider both nature and technology as an ideal. There are beings that will be less favorable towards nature and those that will be less favorable towards technology.

I still think it's shortsighted to try and pigeonhole paradise.

There can indeed be different preferences about what one considers "perfect".

At the same time, "paradise" (a pleasure garden) is a preference that includes nature as well as ingenuity.

The ancient Greek term "paradeisos" comes from Old Iranian "pairi- daêza-" to "build around", in the sense of walls around a sacred garden.

Paradise cultivates both nature and technology.

 

[WarDriveWorley]

This is true but it's equally fair to note that throughout history, with depictions of paradises, whether from deep mythology, or modern literature or other media, it is pretty rare to see a paradise or attempted paradise that isn't at least in harmony with nature, if not actively a product of nature. Certainly I think most humans have a conception of paradise that centers around the natural. Generally those whose idea of paradise is something like a flat endless white plane, or a never-ending empty city or the like are depicted as adversaries of humanity as whole, or other alienated from humanity. Perhaps that's unfair and perhaps it'll change but I think it holds for the foreseeable future.

Oh I agree that the standard stereotypes most people are familiar with from history and literature definitely portray that aspect. I've read a few books/seen a few movies that portray it differently, but the overall theme throughout history is definitely that of a perfect world that blends all the best aspects of nature/technology/humanity.

Personally though my idea of paradise wouldn't carry much if any nature as part of it.

 

[Parmandur]

The terms "ideal" and "idyllic" derive from different etymologies and − in use − mean different things.

You are right about the etymology, but wrong about how the words are used in American English. I hear the traditional form of idyllic used in speech, but I more frequently hear it used as an adjective form of ideal ("the job site had idyllic work conditions"). That's just how people use the term.

 

[Parmandur]

True. If the Ardlings survive the playtesting process as is. We do have a year and a half before 1D&D officially comes out. A lot can happen between now and then.

I think the Ardlings odds are very strong, they are more well targeted towards the game's core audience than many in the forums seem to realize.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I hear the traditional form of idyllic used in speech, but I more frequently hear it used as an adjective form of ideal ("the job site had idyllic work conditions"). That's just how people use the term.

That's an interesting cultural titbit. I've never heard someone using British English use it that way, but a lot of American English word usage involves repurposing words that sort of way - there's another example of the tip of my tongue. Like it's not dictionary correct, and maybe is slightly irritating to the word-nerd in you, but also you know what they're saying.