All around fighting machine

[Lord Pendragon]

I'd suggest NOT taking improved initiative. For a fighter (especially one who's party-minded instead of being a loose cannon), a better feat is combat reflexes - why? Because then you can do your job (stopping opponents from getting into the back lines) even when you get surprised.

I've always thought of Combat Reflexes as extremely suboptimal for a fighter without a high dex. On the other hand, a fighter with a low dex can benefit greatly from Improved Initiative. Or so it's always seemed to me.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I've always thought of Combat Reflexes as extremely suboptimal for a fighter without a high dex. On the other hand, a fighter with a low dex can benefit greatly from Improved Initiative. Or so it's always seemed to me.

Combat reflexes has an ability beyond extra AoO's - that of being able to take AoO's when you're flat footed. Which means (for instance) if you've got reach, those foes can be tripped or disarmed or grappled or whatever before they even get to you.

Conversely, if you've got low dex, the bonus from improved initiative may still leave you at the back of the pack initiative-wise. Especially since you're a fighter, and are unlikely to make the spot checks necessary to avoid sneaky and fast opponents from getting an entire surprise round against you.

 

[was]

I'd suggest NOT taking improved initiative. For a fighter (especially one who's party-minded instead of being a loose cannon), a better feat is combat reflexes - why? Because then you can do your job (stopping opponents from getting into the back lines) even when you get surprised.

-The problem arises throughout combat, however, where enemies aren't trying to sneak past you, but rather choose to engage you in combat directly being the most obvious threat. When you have three or more bad guys on you, you don't necessarily want them taking their shots on you first every single round of combat which can easily happen without a good initiative. The feat does still depend on some rolling, but you have a far better chance of getting an initiative above the bad guys with it.
-Yes, combat reflexes is a good feat. You can make AoO's if flatfooted. I am of course assuming that you're in a confined space and the bad guys have to pass within you're threat range to get around you. However, those that stick around to fight you get to hit you at a lower AC. After the initial suprise, if you get a lower initiative, they get to try to beat you up again. At a lower AC, because you're still flatfooted. Heaven forbid that they have any levels of rogue, because that would subject you to two successive rounds of sneak attack damage.
-Improved initiative is very party-minded. It's all about killing as your foes as as quickly as possible. You cannot protect anyone if you're already dead because you rolled low on your initiative and got beaten down by your foes before. Couple it with cleave or great cleave and you can do some pretty severe damage, taking out many opponents very quickly. .

 

[Saeviomagy]

The problem arises throughout combat, however, where enemies aren't trying to sneak past you, but rather choose to engage you in combat directly being the most obvious threat. When you have three or more bad guys on you, you don't necessarily want them taking their shots on you first every single round of combat which can easily happen without a good initiative.

Umm. Either you just don't get it, or your using a varient on the initiative rules.

You roll initiative once. Then after that, everyone maintains that initiative.

Which means - there is no first after initial attacks. Either they got to hit first, or you got to hit first and then it's just on to general melee. If the fight is ongoing, then whether those bad guys initiative is 3 or 53, they still get one go per round.

If you took improved initiative, then MAYBE you got an extra attack in during the first round. If you were lucky.

If you had combat reflexes, then maybe you got an attack (or two or more - if you had a +1 dex or better) as they closed in.

Given that ranged attackers won't usually be in a position to allow a countercharge, I personally put more stock in combat reflexes.

 

[was]

Umm. Either you just don't get it, or your using a varient on the initiative rules.

You roll initiative once. Then after that, everyone maintains that initiative.

Which means - there is no first after initial attacks. Either they got to hit first, or you got to hit first and then it's just on to general melee. If the fight is ongoing, then whether those bad guys initiative is 3 or 53, they still get one go per round.

If you took improved initiative, then MAYBE you got an extra attack in during the first round. If you were lucky.

If you had combat reflexes, then maybe you got an attack (or two or more - if you had a +1 dex or better) as they closed in.

Given that ranged attackers won't usually be in a position to allow a countercharge, I personally put more stock in combat reflexes.

-We'll just have to chalk it up to a respectful difference in opinion. I do understand where you are coming from, but I play A LOT of fighter characters and I just got tired of them getting severely beaten down before getting a chance to do anything (we get surprised a lot). After the surprise round, if you get a low initiative-which fighters usually do-(and yes we only roll once), you're flat-footed for another round. This subjects you to another round of attacks at a lower AC and more sneak attack damage (darn rogues!) By the time I get a chance to swing, I am always surrounded by foes (three or more, I guess I'm just the most threatening) and down to around 25% or less of my hit points!
-If it comes down to it, I'd much rather pass up a chance to maybe get an additional AoO, or two if I am flat-footed, if enemies try to get around me
for a chance to attack the horde surrounding me first and defend myself at my full A.C. I trust in the abilities of the other members of my party to handle two or three opponents combined. My job as a fighter is to keep the bulk of the horde at bay as long as I can, killing as many as I can. I just can't do that if I'm taken out too quickly. Attacking them first during combat rounds, before they get their shots in on me, helps out quite a bit. True, I might still roll low on initiative, but my chance of beating their's is much greater with this feat.
-but that's just my own feelings on the subject.

 

[JoeBlank]

Another factor with Improved Init: if you win the initiative then in most fights you will have to move and then attack, so you only get one attack that round.

If you let the fight come to you, a high level fighter-type should be able to soak up a round of damage and then cut loose with multiple attacks.

Also, combat reflexes, a reach weapon and trip help against those opponents who want to engage you in melee before your initiative. Simply use your AoO to trip your opponent while he is still 10 feet away. Then, on your initiative, use your full attack on your prone opponent.

 

[Thanael]

I like the Dwarven waraxe idea. That sounds like the route I'm going to take. the improved con is good and the improved str makes up for the lost cha when you're interogating someone.

Then you should consider Tessaraels build: Switch Greatsword with Dwarven waraxe, perhaps take TWF instead of Rapid Shot, and be sure to get mithral medium armour(-> treated as light, thus able to use 2nd level Ranger combat style feat)

With TWF you can go Waraxe & shield or waraxe & handaxe/lightpick/hammer/dagger or even use an urgosh. Or consider taking WF/WSpec with a light weapon instead of waraxe and wield twin hammers/picks/axes/whatever or Urgrosh again.

Not sure about DwarvenDefender though. Fullplate seems obligatory for this one, and you loose your Combat Style feat with heavy armour.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Another factor with Improved Init: if you win the initiative then in most fights you will have to move and then attack, so you only get one attack that round.

And if you do run up and attack, you then get savaged by the target (unless you drop him) and his friends...who get full attacks on YOU.

Which hurts.

Brad

 

[Lord Pendragon]

And if you do run up and attack, you then get savaged by the target (unless you drop him) and his friends...who get full attacks on YOU.

Or you drink a potion of Bull's Strength and wait for him to come to you, then open up with your full attack.

Going first is always an advantage.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I basically have to agree with LP there- going first is always an advantage in D&D...as long as your character is set up to do so.

Someone playing a low Int or Wis character may not be able to fully utilize the Feat, simply doing as Cignus suggested- charging and getting roughed up.

Of course, that is not inherently a bad thing. Besides being a perfectly viable character conception (the impetuous, brash warrior), a high HP brute charging into the enemy is the party's equivalent of a shock trooper or calvaryman. He occupies the immediate attention of the front line and possibly some spellcasters. He may even catch someone flatfooted or drop one with a crit. But that PC had better have a BIG weapon, Power Attack and Cleave to go along with that Improved Initiative.

In fact, if he has the HP (to take the damage from the AoOs) & movement to do it, and a favorable setup of opponents, he may even charge past the front line to attack the spellcasters directly! All of a sudden, the enemy sorcerer has to deal with 285lbs of screaming, charging, 2 handed sword-wielding maniac who just blew past his front line.

In football, its called a sack; in military tactics, its called a "decapitation strike."