All Bets Are Off: Secondary Attack Crit

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

If you score a critical with the secondary attack of All Bets Are Off, would you still use a weapon's crit properties for extra damage, or is just the 1d6 damage maximized? Is the secondary attack even a weapon attack per se? (Yes, right-unless its states otherwise?). Or are you just, like, kicking the enemy in the balls or something?

 

[Minifig]

A critical is a critical irregardless.

It's the weapon you're using's max damage. It's .. a .. *flips through thesaurus*

*can't find a word that fits.. * critical blow.

 

[OnlineDM]

Interesting. The text of the power is as follows:

After landing a solid blow, you belt your enemy in the face with your fist.
Encounter

Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. Make a secondary attack against the same target.
Secondary Attack: Strength + 2 vs. AC
Hit: 1d6 + Strength modifier damage, and the target is dazed until the end of your next turn

I've included the flavor text because it tells you what's supposed to be happening - the secondary attack is a punch with your fist. However, reading the power from a crunch perspective, that's not the case. You don't have to have a hand free, and nowhere does it say that this attack doesn't use your weapon. If you have a +3 magic weapon with +3 proficiency bonus and a +5 Strength modifier, your secondary attack is (+2 +3 +3 +3 +5 = ) +16 versus AC. If it were unarmed, you would have lower proficiency (generally) and no enhancement bonus (generally).

The only crunch evidence that it's not a weapon attack is that the damage is just d6 (not [W]).

If I were trying to rule this from a flavor perspective, I would say no, you don't get any of your weapon's properties on the secondary attack because it's a punch in the face (plus you have to have a hand free to punch with). From a rules as written perspective, though, it sure looks to me as though your weapon's properties, including extra dice on a crit, count for this secondary attack.

 

[FireLance]

Yes, the secondary attack is described in the flavor text as a punch with a fist, and the base damage is expressed as 1d6 instead of some number of [W]s, but nothing in the power implies that it loses the weapon keyword. This means that any benefit that you get for using a weapon keyword power should apply, including adding your magic weapon's enhancement bonus to the attack roll and damage roll, bonus damage on a critical hit, other applicable magic weapon properties, and extra [W] damage on a crit if you are using a high crit weapon.

If this bothers you, you could house-rule the power to make the flavor fit more closely with the mechanics.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

I really dont know how I feel about it, that is, if I should let the secondary attack use the weapon's critical properties. Intuitively, I think no. Because the flavor text of this power seems to be a bit more linked with the mechanics of the power, but, then again, flavor text is meaningless, kind of. I mean, the secondary attack could be considered bashing the enemy's face with the hilt of a sword, thus, using the weapon (a cheesy justification- true). And it's a paragon path power, and I don't mind those being a bit powerful, because it is a staple of the character, even though that may not be a good valid reason. But then again, the Pit Fighter is a strong PP, as is. But then again, I'm a RAW kind of guy. Since I'm torn, I think I'm going to go with consensus on this one, and am leaning towards the RAW.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Very unclear to be honest.

Flavorwise i would say no, but the way the power is written i would say yes.

the power should also clarify if it uses the proficiency bonus of the weapon on the secondary attack... i just don´t like it intuitively...

edit:
just describe it as using the pummel of the sword to hit him in the face... this way youcould rationalize using weapon properties on the hit...

 

[TheClone]

I've included the flavor text because it tells you what's supposed to be happening - the secondary attack is a punch with your fist. However, reading the power from a crunch perspective, that's not the case. You don't have to have a hand free, and nowhere does it say that this attack doesn't use your weapon. If you have a +3 magic weapon with +3 proficiency bonus and a +5 Strength modifier, your secondary attack is (+2 +3 +3 +3 +5 = ) +16 versus AC. If it were unarmed, you would have lower proficiency (generally) and no enhancement bonus (generally).

The only crunch evidence that it's not a weapon attack is that the damage is just d6 (not [W]).

If I were trying to rule this from a flavor perspective, I would say no, you don't get any of your weapon's properties on the secondary attack because it's a punch in the face (plus you have to have a hand free to punch with). From a rules as written perspective, though, it sure looks to me as though your weapon's properties, including extra dice on a crit, count for this secondary attack.

STOP! You're breaking 4e! Trying to analyze 4e powers form a flavor perspective... my godness!

Honestly, if I tried to judge 4e from flavor perspective, it simply wouldn't work. Therefore I would stick to RAW and allow weapon properties on that crit. Only if you want to have in a special flavory way, treat it as unarmed attack. But I guess nobody at wizards knew the flavor text when designing the power.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Use the weapon's bonuses and crit effects.

For another example of a power that suffers from this effect, see Garotte grip.

Read through the flavour, read through the effect. Makes sense, right?

Now look at the 2[w] damage, and the "this power requires you to wield a light blade" section.

 

[TheClone]

Use the weapon's bonuses and crit effects.

For another example of a power that suffers from this effect, see Garotte grip.

Read through the flavour, read through the effect. Makes sense, right?

Now look at the 2[w] damage, and the "this power requires you to wield a light blade" section.

Where's that power from? The compendium does not know it. I only found garrote strangle, but there's nothing like "light blade" in it.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

A critical is a critical irregardless.

Whenever someone says 'irregardless' I die a little inside AND a kitten dies. Don't worry about me, but please think of the kittens. It's 'regardless'.