Not sure exactly what you have against the Dread Necromancer. Personaly, I think the class is great. It gets most of the the arcane and divine spells without any gods poking their heads in. You seem to be against the lich thing at 20th level -- and admittedly that's neither a boon nor bust as far as my desires -- but it is 20th level and, really, it only seems natural for a necromancer. If you can't get over the lich-like specials along the way, change them to special abilities more to your liking. I think the base build for the class though is a great idea.
All I want is a necromancer without gimmiks
- Thread starter jester47
- Start date
Warbringer
Explorer
Dread Nec is a good class. Just drop the lich feats and off you go. In fact, replace those feat with control undead II, III, IV using the number as a "x" muliplier.
However, I do like the necrochanter idead
However, I do like the necrochanter idead
SweeneyTodd
First Post
I've never had a problem with clerics without gods, so I just use the cleric approach.
The other, easier option is probably to move the Animate Dead line over to also be available as a wizard spell.
The other, easier option is probably to move the Animate Dead line over to also be available as a wizard spell.
howandwhy99
Adventurer
Here's my suggestion: (Maybe it's a system thing, but ignore all the crazy rules for a minute)
1. Write up your idea. Make it as in-depth, magical, and to your tastes as you possibly can. Remember to not go too far too soon. It needs to be a joy to play from start to finish, but the finish is still a long way off, right?
2. Have people you respect read it. There is absolutely no need for these people to be gamers. Ask for ideas, potential problems, crazy (even zany) changes to learn just how good your necromancer could be.
3. Research the idea in general. There must be tons of different takes on Necromancers throughout history and literature. Steal whatever you like and make a note of anything with potential. You can always come back later and rethink it.
4. Think about it in terms of roleplaying. No, not rules. Instead, think about feasibility, problems which might come up in play, how the class effects other characters or players, etc. I'm guessing most DMs will not allow a necromancer as they envision the class as always evil. Another problem is how the whole WORLD will treat the character. They're a heretic. Clerics won't heal them, paladins will be dispatched to kill them, even druids see undeath as an enemy to their natural balance. Don't get discouraged however. Sometimes these problems can be overcome.
5. Lastly, write up the game rules. Given the weight game balance has in 3E, I would go straight to the experts in the two Rules Forums. Even a basic outline is a good start. As long as you present a detailed description, I would think you should get a proper rule build in the end.
To me this sounds like potentially too much work. I prefer just coming up with a few unique ideas and building up from there. Not that I don't attempt to create something as awesome in the end. But if my character dies, all that work would go straight down the toilet.
If you are using D20, I suggest finding a DM who will allow you to play a custom class with only 2 or 3 levels actually mapped out. That should give you some flexiblity to change the future course of your character class as you play.
edit: I just remembered. You and your DM will probably end up creating a lot of unique spells too. This can be as fun as actually playing the character.
1. Write up your idea. Make it as in-depth, magical, and to your tastes as you possibly can. Remember to not go too far too soon. It needs to be a joy to play from start to finish, but the finish is still a long way off, right?
2. Have people you respect read it. There is absolutely no need for these people to be gamers. Ask for ideas, potential problems, crazy (even zany) changes to learn just how good your necromancer could be.
3. Research the idea in general. There must be tons of different takes on Necromancers throughout history and literature. Steal whatever you like and make a note of anything with potential. You can always come back later and rethink it.
4. Think about it in terms of roleplaying. No, not rules. Instead, think about feasibility, problems which might come up in play, how the class effects other characters or players, etc. I'm guessing most DMs will not allow a necromancer as they envision the class as always evil. Another problem is how the whole WORLD will treat the character. They're a heretic. Clerics won't heal them, paladins will be dispatched to kill them, even druids see undeath as an enemy to their natural balance. Don't get discouraged however. Sometimes these problems can be overcome.
5. Lastly, write up the game rules. Given the weight game balance has in 3E, I would go straight to the experts in the two Rules Forums. Even a basic outline is a good start. As long as you present a detailed description, I would think you should get a proper rule build in the end.
To me this sounds like potentially too much work. I prefer just coming up with a few unique ideas and building up from there. Not that I don't attempt to create something as awesome in the end. But if my character dies, all that work would go straight down the toilet.
If you are using D20, I suggest finding a DM who will allow you to play a custom class with only 2 or 3 levels actually mapped out. That should give you some flexiblity to change the future course of your character class as you play.
edit: I just remembered. You and your DM will probably end up creating a lot of unique spells too. This can be as fun as actually playing the character.
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painandgreed
First Post
A guy in my gaming group* has the same problem. Some sort of decent necromancer without having to be a divine spellcaster. It just doesn't seem to exist. He eventually gave up on the idea because it would probably require making up spells or even a PrC to do so.
*Unless this is you Jason?
*Unless this is you Jason?
Haffrung Helleyes
First Post
Well
This used to be a legitimate complaint. Now you have the Archivist (for the INT based Necromancer) and the Dread Necromancer (for the CHA based Necromancer). Both of those classes are awesome.
Ken
This used to be a legitimate complaint. Now you have the Archivist (for the INT based Necromancer) and the Dread Necromancer (for the CHA based Necromancer). Both of those classes are awesome.
Ken
jester47
First Post
Looks like I will need to take a closer look at Heroes of Horror as it sounds like it provides all that I want. How much do the Archivist and the Dread Necromancer classes use rules that are outside the three core rulebooks? I am getting the impression that the DN is a 3.5 take on the White Dwarf Necromancer which was exactly what I want.
Blaque
First Post
While Dread Necromancer and Archivist mention things like warmages in parties and all that, both have all the information for them contained in Heroes of Horror and the Coreset.
The man DN schtick is basicaly ultimate control and necromantic stuff. They easily amass a great amount of minons due ot having rebuking, and a bonus ot how many undead they can control with animate dead. They also have a few not-just-undead stuff to do too, such as fear effects, and necrotic destructive things. Additionally,t hey can add any cleric or wizard necromancy spell to their spell list, which helps.
Personally, I wish the lich transformation was optional myself. While I like it give syou the option, I'm sort of would rather to have the ability to just put off getting the phalactary, be a better caster, and find a better way to cheat death.
In fact, its really my only gripe. I had fun sitting and building one though. Complete with atleast using vampires to get out of lichdom (I mean seriously, sometimes, you want your character to stay looking sexy
)
Stuff.
The man DN schtick is basicaly ultimate control and necromantic stuff. They easily amass a great amount of minons due ot having rebuking, and a bonus ot how many undead they can control with animate dead. They also have a few not-just-undead stuff to do too, such as fear effects, and necrotic destructive things. Additionally,t hey can add any cleric or wizard necromancy spell to their spell list, which helps.
Personally, I wish the lich transformation was optional myself. While I like it give syou the option, I'm sort of would rather to have the ability to just put off getting the phalactary, be a better caster, and find a better way to cheat death.
In fact, its really my only gripe. I had fun sitting and building one though. Complete with atleast using vampires to get out of lichdom (I mean seriously, sometimes, you want your character to stay looking sexy
)Stuff.
jester47
First Post
I agree with you Blaque,
My biggest beef about the necromancer builds is that the pale master seemed sort of introspective, that is the person wanted to be some kind of undead. He wanted to be like the undead so he became some sort of Undead. Not any real specific kind.
The Dread Necromancer becomes a Lich at 20th level. Why not become a Lich as soon as you can perform the ritual at 11th level if that is the goal?
The problem I have with the true necromancer was that it was not all brains. You had to be a cleric of some sort.
The only one that really fits is the specialist, and that one is sort of limited in power compared to the divine.
I will have to take a good look at the DN and the Archivist.
Granted, I don't play anymore and I am selling my collection, I figure I would just work this out if I wanted to pick up the game again...
Unlikely.
Aaron.
My biggest beef about the necromancer builds is that the pale master seemed sort of introspective, that is the person wanted to be some kind of undead. He wanted to be like the undead so he became some sort of Undead. Not any real specific kind.
The Dread Necromancer becomes a Lich at 20th level. Why not become a Lich as soon as you can perform the ritual at 11th level if that is the goal?
The problem I have with the true necromancer was that it was not all brains. You had to be a cleric of some sort.
The only one that really fits is the specialist, and that one is sort of limited in power compared to the divine.
I will have to take a good look at the DN and the Archivist.
Granted, I don't play anymore and I am selling my collection, I figure I would just work this out if I wanted to pick up the game again...
Unlikely.
Aaron.
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