All PC dead, what to do?

[Falkus]

Idea is good, but cheap, and I'm not Quentin Tarrantino to turn cheap ideas into cool-again. As a player I will imagine: "Everytime I will die, DM will turn it into dream now".
But I will ask my players, maybe they want they characters cheap, but alive, bacause they not feel guilty.

There's a difference between fudging to save a single player, and fudging to avoid a TPK. TPK's are campaign enders, and are not fun for anybody.

 

[Cedric]

I posted before with the "break out the dice" they learned a lesson line of thought. But honestly, how much you enjoy the game matters more than the other details of the game.

There is no mystical integrity of the rules or intent of the rules to protect. In the end, the only thing that matters is whether or not you (as a group) enjoyed the game.

My advice...ask them what they would like to do. If they would like to rewind things and get a second shot at the encounter, then go for it...or heck, rewind time to the first break in and say that someone made their listen check. Play it out from there.

However, the group also has an option then to let the encounter stand, make new characters and continue on from a different perspective.

 

[Cedric]

There's a difference between fudging to save a single player, and fudging to avoid a TPK. TPK's are campaign enders, and are not fun for anybody.

That wholly depends on the attitude of your group. A few of the best campaigns I've ever played in have ended in a TPK. As long as I didn't do anything stupid, I'm fine with that.

I, personally, would NEVER want a do-over. I had my shot, I blew it. But just because I take it seriously, doesn't mean that everyone else has too.

 

[Nightfall]

TPKs are fun! If done properly!

But in any case Thayan, you are right, I should have had suggested they fight a mid level follower of Belsameth. Like a Rogue/cleric.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

With regard to all the water under the bridge ... Once you had your second death you could have stopped it witout fudging. A group of people comes up to their rooms in the inn after being up very late, and the rogue is killed or runs off. I also probably would have ruled that the PCs didn't die quietly, allowing an extra listen check. I would have provided a few IC clues too that people were being killed in their sleep and that they should take some precautions.



As for what to do now... I personally don't care for retconning, dream sequences, or afterlife adventures. The idea about the PCs being raised because they're the only one who can deal with the killer is pretty good. Here's another one: the weapon wasn't a standard weapon, it was a soul-sucker sword that capture the souls of its victims for consumption in fiendish rituals. The PCs are dead, but if the weapon is broken the souls return to the PCs and they're alive again. Have the players play a group of 1st level constables who need to track down, capture, and destroy the weapon within a time limit. If they succeed the players get their old PCs back. If they fail, have them continue playing the constables and start over from there.

 

[S'mon]

I think if you don't want to run a Gamist game where PCs can die from things like this, it's best to use Fate Points or similar mechanism (from OGL Conan, Warhammer FRP, etc) - that way a PC can spend a FP to pass the Listen check to hear the Rogue sneaking up, as would happen in a book or movie.

If you do want to run a Gamist game where the focus is on the challenge of staying alive, you have to accept PCs can die, but you should be careful not to give NPCs unfair breaks. The locks should have been at least DC 20, and 'taking 20' means that the Rogue is working on that lock a full 2 minutes, giving 20 Listen checks to the room occupant would be fair.

BTW, did the Inn not have staff who'd get suspicious at a Rogue wandering from room to room murdering guests? Any place rich enough to provide private rooms you'd think would have some security. It's best to think about these things before running a published scenario, and edit as necessary.

 

[viscounteric]

Oh well, the party's dead, wasted, kaput... I see nothing wrong with the way the TPK went down.

Start the new characters in the same area, up the evil factor a notch or two (I mean, c'mon... large groups of people getting slaughtered in inns? Is there a reaction from the locals?)

If I was an evil GM, I'd end the first arc of the campaign with the new characters fighting the undead versions of the old characters.... actually I have done that before.

 

[billd91]

Having now had a quick look at the PDF I think that Ari got the DC's for the locks way too low. A simple lock is DC 20 yet all the locks on the doors in the inn are DC 10! Even still that may not have made a difference. I think the other thing you should have done Thomas is give the PC's (and anyone else nearby) a listen check each time one of them was attacked by the rogue in addition to the ones that you already gave them. Not that this makes a difference though since the encounter has already happened.

Right. The rogue taking 20 on the lock-picking is sufficient to get through any simple lock so even with the DC set too low, she's in. However, that's 2 minutes of time instead of 1 round. I'd have considered many more listen checks than one to hear the rogue scrabbling at the lock for an extended period of time. That's part of the price of taking 20. The extra time means more chances to get caught doing the deed.
But I also agree that the encounter is done. Time to move on to something that fixes it. I happen to think that being raised by the bishop has the best feel

 

[danzig138]

You fudge only when it furthers the storyline or increases the fun of your players.

If you don't like the chance of something happening that you don't like, don't roll the dice. I can't be the only person that, as a player and GM, is bothered by the idea of fudging. If I get unlucky and die because of a roll, so be it. If important results are going to be fudged, why bother with the dice? Just tell me what you want to have happen.

One of the last 2Ed PCs I designed died from a maxed-out crit from a 2-handed sword on the first swing of the first combat of the campaign. Hours of PC design, a campaign-specific PC history, etc...gone on a fluke roll.

Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you.

I'm glad fudging works out for some people, but I really just don't grok it.

 

[danzig138]

TPK's are campaign enders, and are not fun for anybody.

Says you, but you're wrong. When I'm watching tv or a movie, I generally know that no matter how dire the circumstances, the good guys will manage to pull off the win.

That's not what I'm looking for in a game. We might all die and Dire Villain Bob destroys or takes over the world. As long as we put up the good fight, it's all good, and it opens up future game possibilities.

Just because it's a TPK doesn't mean it's bad or isn't fun.