All subraces all the time

[Psion]

The discussion of elves in the ECL races thread made me wonder if I should make silver Grey elves my only elves.

Then it began to occur to me that, as I try more of them, the variant subraces in the Races of <noun> series are seeming more interesting and flavorful than just the core demihuman races. Likewise, I have been stealing races from Minions, Oathbound, and Arcana Unearthed/Evolved more and more, as well as mixing in a few terrain subraces from Unearethed Arcana.

Although I get an earful of people who hate subraces, I also hear a lot of people who feel the demihuman races are bland. I'm thinking that if anything, subraces are a solution to a problem, not something to be avoided.

So what do you think? Are the core demihuman races too bland to live? Has anyone out there wen't excusivley with subraces or other variants?

 

[Turanil]

I don't know if it's a matter of blandness, but my next campaign setting will have all the races reworked so they are no basic elves, dwarves, etc. However, the game mechanics remain the same.

 

[Turjan]

So what do you think? Are the core demihuman races too bland to live? Has anyone out there wen't excusivley with subraces or other variants?

I don't think that core demihuman races are too bland. IME, blandness cannot really be overcome by simple mechanical changes as presented by subraces, at least not more than once, and that's when they are met by the players for the first time. After that, it's more a question of cultural background that makes people interesting, although you will have to have the right group to appreciate that . If you have to resign to purely mechanical solutions, I prefer class/prestige class combos. They are much more flexible than any racial mechanics.

A good example for what I mean is 'Liber Bestarius'. Most of the races presented in there fill the visual and mechanical niches of existing standard demihuman races, but the background stories make them worthwhile. This led me to plundering those backgrounds and leaving the races alone .

 

[Psion]

I don't think that core demihuman races are too bland. IME, blandness cannot really be overcome by simple mechanical changes as presented by subraces,

I don't think I ever limited my discussion to mechanical details. In fact, while I think it plays an important role (I find it a bit daft that elves have a rep for being masters of the woodland but not a single mechanical confirmation of this supposed fact), some of the things I find interesting about the Races of... races is that they present something a bit more distinct than the races in the PHB.

 

[Turjan]

I don't think I ever limited my discussion to mechanical details. In fact, while I think it plays an important role (I find it a bit daft that elves have a rep for being masters of the woodland but not a single mechanical confirmation of this supposed fact), some of the things I find interesting about the Races of... races is that they present something a bit more distinct than the races in the PHB.

But that's what subraces are: a few mechanical changes compared to the base race. Everything else is cultural dressing. The spread of human real world cultures from SE asian headhunters, south african bushmen, Greenland's inuit to ancient Japanese is much broader than that over PHB standard races, and the former are all 'standard' humans. The PHB races fit mostly narrow European cultural traditions. If you want to make that more interesting, change the dressing.

 

[Aldarc]

I find Arcana Evolved's Faen race to be a nice substitute for elves. It is especially nice that they are able to eventually turn into Sprytes, which is a nice way to retain that supernatural element or otherworldly element of the race that makes them more than skinny humans. Several months ago, I made my own variation of faen (+2 Cha, -2 Str) for a world I am brewing, and I gave them some of the qualities of the standard elves (sleep immunity and bonus to ench. saves).

I prefer to use only one variety of a subspecies. The only variations I have are not with sub-species, but when dealing with cultural variations. So the physiology remains the same, but skill bonuses or small combat bonuses may change depending on the culture.

 

[Turjan]

I find Arcana Evolved's Faen race to be a nice substitute for elves. It is especially nice that they are able to eventually turn into Sprytes, which is a nice way to retain that supernatural element or otherworldly element of the race that makes them more than skinny humans. Several months ago, I made my own variation of faen (+2 Cha, -2 Str) for a world I am brewing, and I gave them some of the qualities of the standard elves (sleep immunity and bonus to ench. saves).

I took a somewhat similar approach in my homebrew. Elves are not that long-lived as per PHB - humans just think they are because elves don't seem to age - but they can choose to undergo the fey transformation (inspired by AU) to make them near-immortal. This comes with a bunch of drawbacks though (gradually lose their memories of social relations and their connection to the material plane).

 

[Tonguez]

I hate subraces but love cultural diversity and thats whats needed to stop things being bland.

ergo if I want an elf wo likes messing about in boats (rather than hugging trees) then I'm not going to go and create an entire race of 'Mariner Elves'. I'm going to have a elf - standard elf- who was raised on a floating island of rafts in the middle of the ocean, established after persecution 450 years before forced the els to flee the mainland etc etc

 

[Aaron L]

I've given subraces a hard time, but I have nothing against the concept gnerally, just the way it is implemented and the sometimes seemingly random inclusion of a subrace for no other reason than to have it. I need some historical reason for a divergent variety of halfling, for example, or at least legendary. Now, in a plane spanning game like Psion's, or a setting like Dragonstar or Planescape, subraces are an excellent way to show the diversity of the multiverse. But for games largely set on one world I tend to get annoyed with more than 2 or 3 varieties of a race as it seems like overkill. If you want to equate subraces with ethnicities than there should be a lot more than there are, and humans should have some. If you want them to represent actual alternate races, give a reason for thier existence as different than teh standard branch of the race. Look at drow, theres a big reason for thier existence, and anything less than that feels lame to me in comparison. And give humans as many subraces as anyone else, dang it! It just rubs me the wrong way that there are 3 subraces of halfling and none of humans. Ive never seen a satisfactory reason for it.

This is my personal taste and nothing more, I certainly am not trying to tell people not to include as many subraces as they want in thier game!

Now as for races lacking mechanical flavor? Hell yes I agree. Ive been trying to come up with balance alterations to the races for a while now. Ive considered making elves and dwarves maybe LA+1 races (with suitable bonuses of course, and just for my homebrew setting) and giving elves a dang good reason why they are the master wizards of the world.

 

[Psion]

ergo if I want an elf wo likes messing about in boats (rather than hugging trees) then I'm not going to go and create an entire race of 'Mariner Elves'. I'm going to have a elf - standard elf- who was raised on a floating island of rafts in the middle of the ocean, established after persecution 450 years before forced the els to flee the mainland etc etc

Funny you should say that.

My "sea elf" is basically a high elf per the core rules. I use my background packages to allow them to trade out some racial abilities for appropraite feats (sea legs, etc.) and class skills. Of course, the background packages rule are not part of the core rules.

I don't share an obsessive drive to make human subraces because extra skill points and feats are such a flexible character crafting tool to begin with. But the background package rule supports that too (basically, a background pacakge can be purchased as a feat, which can give you up to 3 class skills, two of which can be traded for a specific background appropriate feat.)

I don't know how to respond to Turjan other than to say, IME, if your players are the sort that would actually absorb a ton of background material, you probably aren't experiencing a problem with the depth and variety of the PCs to begin with. But speaking from experience (I found the L5R secrets books really dull), while having a nice detailed background is nice, it is difficult to as pointedly express it in a game without bringing mechanics in the picture.