Almost every fantasy show is trying to be D&D or Game of Thrones

[Celebrim]

Have you every heard the expression "going backwards"?

Not in this context. Please explain.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It doesn't bother me either. I love Denzel Washington as an actor and I loved him in 'Much Ado About Nothing' even if a man of Washington's ethnic background probably isn't historical to the royal family of Aragon.

None of Shakespeare's plays, even his history plays, were meant to be historical reenactions. He chose his locations for other reasons, usually symbolic or metaphorical. His historical plays were openly meant to kiss the butts of the current monarchy and everyone watching them knew they were fiction.

Much Ado About Nothing has nothing to say about historical Aragon.

 

[Stalker0]

It's not sexist to think that Rey is a badly written character, that Jyn Erso is less badly written, and that say that Ellen Ripley (of Alien and Aliens) or Sarah Connor (of T2: Judgement Day) are much better written characters. As soon as you start pulling, "You're just a SEXIST. You just can't handle strong women" for not liking Rey to someone that loves Ellen Ripley or Sarah Connor, you are the one that is a sexist.

I'd also add Avatar's 2 Neytiri to the list of a good written female character. She is powerful but maternal, fierce when fighting but comforting with her children. But she also has her own flaws they don't shy away from, Neytiri's "racism" towards humans manifests in

Spoiler

her almost killing Spyder, a human boy who has done nothing wrong and who sees Neytiri as a short of mother figure

Lastly, Neytiri is commanding in her own way but does listen to Jake when it comes to matters of strategy and tactics, for he is far more trained in it than she is.

Its a simple role but it just highlights that you don't have to move heaven and earth to make a decent character.

 

[Ryujin]

It doesn't bother me either. I love Denzel Washington as an actor and I loved him in 'Much Ado About Nothing' even if a man of Washington's ethnic background probably isn't historical to the royal family of Aragon.

But that's also to some extent beside the point because the analogy here isn't a generally applicable one.

Have you seen Washington in "The Equalizer" movies where he plays the character from the '80s TV series, that was originally played by pasty Britisher in his (then) in his mid-50s Edward Woodward? It's a different take, but excellent, at least IMHO. I can't speak to the TV series starring Queen Latifa, however.

 

[Ryujin]

Not in this context. Please explain.

It's really quite simple, in this context. There has been advancement in the representation of non-White people in film and TV. Whitewashing those characters is effectively erasing them, therefore "going backwards."

 

[Celebrim]

None of Shakespeare's plays, even his history plays, were meant to be historical reenactions. He chose his locations for other reasons, usually symbolic or metaphorical. His historical plays were openly meant to kiss the butts of the current monarchy and everyone watching them knew they were fiction.

Much Ado About Nothing has nothing to say about historical Aragon.

I think you just expanded on the content of the sentence you left out of your quotations.

 

[billd91]

Nothing good ever came out of not listening to people. The assumption that everyone is being dishonest with themselves and others, while its sometimes correct, is probably never justified.

The "main beef" with Rey is a lot of little things that add up to a very poorly written character. But as for the writing around making her heroic, one of the areas it's pretty easy to show that the writers treated a female character differently than a male character is that when Luke meets his mentors like Han and Obi Wan - older wiser figures that are supposed to guide him in his heroic journey - they put him in his place. And we the audience are made to understand that Luke needs to be put in his place, and that whatever his skills potential is, he's still a green and inexperienced kid in many ways. Luke gets flattened by sand people and needs rescuing. Luke gets flattened again by criminals in the cantina and again needs rescuing. Practically every time Luke opens his mouth Obi Wan is rolling his eyes and signaling to the audience (since Obi Wan has been shown as older and wiser) that Luke is being naive. And then we have the whole Han "Jumping through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops".

By contrast, when Rey is introduced to her mentors - Han (again) and Luke - she puts them in their place. She corrects and instructs them. Why? Presumably because the writers could not stand to have on screen a woman being corrected by a man about anything. However, this leads to absurdities like Rey showing up on the Millenium Falcon and correcting Han about his own ship.

She corrects him about his own ship on issues that she knows about - specifically the modifications made on Jakku after it has left Han's possession. And Luke as a Jedi mentor is a particularly broken person because of his experiences. Rey's experiences with Han and Luke differ from Luke's with Han and Ben because they're ALL different people with different relationships. Following the exact same path, about being put in their place, wouldn't be better writing - that's what would be lazy.

One of the many many problems with Rey as a character (which is just one of the many many problems with the sequels as movies) is that they vaguely seem to want to have a "golden trio" - the three friends working together to fix things. They seem to want to have an ensemble cast. But none of the characters actually have any sort of relationship with each other because the central character Rey doesn't need anyone. She's a much better character for a solo story, but the Star Wars feel typically is an ensemble cast. In the original trilogy, R2-D2 was the best tech, C3-P0 the best face man, Han the best rogue/shot, Luke the best pilot/swordsman, Leia the best leader/diplomat, etc. and everyone got to have their own moments to shine even if they were the comic relief. Compare this with JarJar Binks that is never really useful as a party member, or with Rey who doesn't need a party for anything because she's a better mechanic than Han, better warrior than everyone, better rogue than everyone, and so forth. It doesn't make for a good dynamic in the story.

The problem isn't that she's better (though, let's face it from Empire, Han isn't the best mechanic, even with his own ship). The problem is they never given the opportunity to work together as that 'golden trio' until movie 3. Ray and Poe barely intersect in the first and the second movie completely separates them like with Empire but without giving them the Hoth segment first. The fact that Rey is particularly the separated one, more than even with Luke's separation in the original trilogy, doesn't mean or even show she's better at everything at all.

It's not sexist to think that Rey is a badly written character, that Jyn Erso is less badly written, and that say that Ellen Ripley (of Alien and Aliens) or Sarah Connor (of T2: Judgement Day) are much better written characters. As soon as you start pulling, "You're just a SEXIST. You just can't handle strong women" for not liking Rey to someone that loves Ellen Ripley or Sarah Connor, you are the one that is a sexist.

It is sexist to hold Rey accountable for things that male characters skate by on whether it's Luke's immediate mastery of the Rebellion's most sophisticated star fighter or Anakin's antics. And those arguments come up SO often that it seems clear to me the difference is how the sex of the character interacts with the viewer's self-projection and heroic wish fulfillment and how resentful toxic fanboys get about it.

 

[payn]

Wont anyone think of the majority???

 

[billd91]

Would you classify what the series She-Hulk did as poking fun - in the same spirit as John Byrne's comics?
Why do you think the fandom was ok with the comic but not the series?

Yeah, the TV show was WAY better at what it was doing than the comic. As much as I like much of Byrne's work, some of it doesn't age well.

 

[AnotherGuy]

@Whizbang Dustyboots, given what you posted upthread I did a search while looking for the viewership numbers of the show and instead got sidetracked with this twitter feed by Dan Slott who claims he has written the most She-Hulk comics (you may have already seen it). It is an interesting read from his perspective but I'm not sure he comes away clean as there are interesting questions posed to him by some of the posters. Of course there are those that are trolling.
Anyways - that is me on it.