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Alright i need a little help
- Thread starter xander764
- Start date
Dandu
First Post
PureGoldx58
First Post
I wasn't aware that a mid level Wizard was a challenge to Epic Characters. (haha)
I just chose one at random, but I think that a Living Vault is a fair challenge for anyone who doesn't have a clone of it's owner.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Hmm. The highest I've ever run was level 30.
Surprisingly, I was able to give thema real run for their money using a critter from Epic Level Handbook, Cr23 if I recall. Don't remember the name of them, but they're referred to as "the mother of wolves".
I had the party run across some low level Bandits (3rd or 4th level, not even a speed-bump for the PCs). I figured the world didn't necessarily scale with PCs, and the Bandits saw some people who looked rich riding along without obvious bodyguards and thought it was their lucky day.
Bandit chief steps out of the woods, Robin-hood style, and greets them, then asks them to "make a donation to a good cause." Party quickly realizes that there are a dozen or so archers in the near distance (under 30 feet), who think they're hidden, with weapons trained on them.
As the party banters a bit, preparing to slaughter bandits, the entire scene is interrupted by the sounds of a hunting horn, and a man rides up, accompanied by a pack of *very* large "dogs" and a couple of outriders. He demands to know what's going on on his lands, disturbing his hunt.
The dogs advance on the bandits and PC's alike, there being at least one dog per character, and then they wait.
The bandit chief apologizes to the noble, saying something like "just doing business, m'lord", and looks very nervous.
So, what are the odds that someone in your party will break the peace of the moment, thinking that his good, enjoyable, one-sided mindless slaughter is about to be taken away?
In ours, he cast FireStorm and placed his flaming cubes so they'd fry pretty much all the bandits in one shot.
That left a little over two of those things for each PC.
Their big thing is that trip attack. If you go down within the threat zone of one, they get an automatic-damage "savage" attack on you (no to-hit needed, so we don't care about the AC). The Savage attack averages 50 points a pop or so, and the way the dogs were, everyone was within threat of at least two of them.
The guy with the firestorm, who thought he was immune because he was sitting on his Flying Carpet, didn't realize how far these things could jump. One of them peeled him right off of that thing.
Anyone who went down was suddenly facing 100 or 150 hit points per round of automatic damage, with attempts to rise prompting AoO from every threatening wolf, the result was shocking.
I didn't expect to drop anyone, but out of a party of 7 I got three before they made their escape.
Don't bother to ask what the Noble was out hunting. Poor little fox never stood a chance.
Surprisingly, I was able to give thema real run for their money using a critter from Epic Level Handbook, Cr23 if I recall. Don't remember the name of them, but they're referred to as "the mother of wolves".
I had the party run across some low level Bandits (3rd or 4th level, not even a speed-bump for the PCs). I figured the world didn't necessarily scale with PCs, and the Bandits saw some people who looked rich riding along without obvious bodyguards and thought it was their lucky day.
Bandit chief steps out of the woods, Robin-hood style, and greets them, then asks them to "make a donation to a good cause." Party quickly realizes that there are a dozen or so archers in the near distance (under 30 feet), who think they're hidden, with weapons trained on them.
As the party banters a bit, preparing to slaughter bandits, the entire scene is interrupted by the sounds of a hunting horn, and a man rides up, accompanied by a pack of *very* large "dogs" and a couple of outriders. He demands to know what's going on on his lands, disturbing his hunt.
The dogs advance on the bandits and PC's alike, there being at least one dog per character, and then they wait.
The bandit chief apologizes to the noble, saying something like "just doing business, m'lord", and looks very nervous.
So, what are the odds that someone in your party will break the peace of the moment, thinking that his good, enjoyable, one-sided mindless slaughter is about to be taken away?
In ours, he cast FireStorm and placed his flaming cubes so they'd fry pretty much all the bandits in one shot.
That left a little over two of those things for each PC.
Their big thing is that trip attack. If you go down within the threat zone of one, they get an automatic-damage "savage" attack on you (no to-hit needed, so we don't care about the AC). The Savage attack averages 50 points a pop or so, and the way the dogs were, everyone was within threat of at least two of them.
The guy with the firestorm, who thought he was immune because he was sitting on his Flying Carpet, didn't realize how far these things could jump. One of them peeled him right off of that thing.
Anyone who went down was suddenly facing 100 or 150 hit points per round of automatic damage, with attempts to rise prompting AoO from every threatening wolf, the result was shocking.
I didn't expect to drop anyone, but out of a party of 7 I got three before they made their escape.
Don't bother to ask what the Noble was out hunting. Poor little fox never stood a chance.
cjosephs1s
First Post
We run a Gestalt campaign but we recently fought a couple high level gem dragons from some plane our DM found and it was an EL 39 encounter. Had my toon not done some serious crits for over 2k damage these bad boys wouldn't have been so easy.
Greenfield, I find your story very intriguing, please share more of these anecdotes whenever you get the chance. However, it does shine light on some real dysfunctional aspects of D&D...Hmm. The highest I've ever run was level 30.
Surprisingly, I was able to give thema real run for their money using a critter from Epic Level Handbook, Cr23 if I recall. Don't remember the name of them, but they're referred to as "the mother of wolves".
I had the party run across some low level Bandits (3rd or 4th level, not even a speed-bump for the PCs). I figured the world didn't necessarily scale with PCs, and the Bandits saw some people who looked rich riding along without obvious bodyguards and thought it was their lucky day.
Bandit chief steps out of the woods, Robin-hood style, and greets them, then asks them to "make a donation to a good cause." Party quickly realizes that there are a dozen or so archers in the near distance (under 30 feet), who think they're hidden, with weapons trained on them.
As the party banters a bit, preparing to slaughter bandits, the entire scene is interrupted by the sounds of a hunting horn, and a man rides up, accompanied by a pack of *very* large "dogs" and a couple of outriders. He demands to know what's going on on his lands, disturbing his hunt.
The dogs advance on the bandits and PC's alike, there being at least one dog per character, and then they wait.
The bandit chief apologizes to the noble, saying something like "just doing business, m'lord", and looks very nervous.
So, what are the odds that someone in your party will break the peace of the moment, thinking that his good, enjoyable, one-sided mindless slaughter is about to be taken away?
In ours, he cast FireStorm and placed his flaming cubes so they'd fry pretty much all the bandits in one shot.
That left a little over two of those things for each PC.
Their big thing is that trip attack. If you go down within the threat zone of one, they get an automatic-damage "savage" attack on you (no to-hit needed, so we don't care about the AC). The Savage attack averages 50 points a pop or so, and the way the dogs were, everyone was within threat of at least two of them.
The guy with the firestorm, who thought he was immune because he was sitting on his Flying Carpet, didn't realize how far these things could jump. One of them peeled him right off of that thing.
Anyone who went down was suddenly facing 100 or 150 hit points per round of automatic damage, with attempts to rise prompting AoO from every threatening wolf, the result was shocking.
I didn't expect to drop anyone, but out of a party of 7 I got three before they made their escape.
Don't bother to ask what the Noble was out hunting. Poor little fox never stood a chance.
In particular, you describe something that could/should essentially happen a lot. One group encountering another group and neither side has any idea how capable the other is. We can even throw in the large hunting dogs and the party had no idea what they were up against. D&D does a terrible job of really addressing the inability of determining respective threat levels. I know that there is a Sense Motive option for doing this, but how often is it used?
In the real world, like say in war zones or terrorist ridden countries, you don't see such orders of magnitude difference in killing power. In fact, guns, are the greatest equalizer because I can kill the greatest martial artist in the world with one bullet to the head. No individual can kill a group of individuals without hardware and that hardware would be obvious to the attackers. If we go back to midevil times, there's even more parity between two unknowns. In other words, the bandits you described would never, ever, ever, fear something like what happened, could happen.
And yet, these bandits would seem to run a frequent risk of getting fried by any party with a spell caster or diced by some character with haste and tons of gear. So you have to ask yourself, do you really think a bunch of bandits would risk rolling up on complete strangers? Let's expand that question, do you really think people would pick fights in bars with complete strangers?
For me, this problem underscores one of the double-edged swords of the DM. The DM knows what level the PC's are, so the DM doesn't think twice about having x humanoids attack them. But if D&D were real, is that plausible? Would those Bandits really risk attacking a party of 7 they have no information on and could be Epic level adventurers? To put it another way, any campaign setting would be filled with stories of people picking fights with the wrong people and getting annihilated. You'd have to think that would have a serious effect on how encounters would be handled by sentient beings.
RUMBLETiGER
Adventurer
I'd imagine it depends upon what percent of the population has class levels in adventuring classes. If anyone and their brother could hit level 16 in a lifetime, then I'd be very frightened to turn to a life of road banditry. If it takes a very special type of hero to build up an epic story, then more than 99% of the population is ripe for the pickins!
Greenfield
Adventurer
By the books, the vast majority of people in the D&D world are 1st or 2nd level, and 80% are commoners, with no real PC class levels.
A 3rd level Bandit Chief, with a dozen archers in hiding, is pretty much used to being the biggest, baddest guy around.
And while higher level people will be able to gauge the effective levels of opposition based on Knowledge Dungeoneering or Knowledge Nature for most critters, or by simply observing how well equipped an adversary is, the low level types don't have such an option. They haven't got the skills or experience.
You can look at clothes and tell if they're common or well made. Well made might be magical, or they might just be expensive.
PCs see men in common clothing, no obvious personal jewelry, and they know that if these guys don't have any rings or amulets, they don't have any magic rings or amulets. If their weapons aren't at least master worked, you know for a fact that they aren't magical.
Soa Notice Obvious roll for anyone with any levels in Spot tells you if the "bandit troupe" you're facing are a speed bump or not.
The nobleman, however, was well dressed, with good quality gear, and a pack or formidable looking hounds. It takes an actual check to see what he's got. Something like Arcane Sight tells you a lot about a man with levels.
All that aside, I'm pretty sure I've mentioned before that I don't have my game world scale up with the PCs. There are still Orc raids along the borderlands, Highwaymen on the roads and petty evils out there even when the PCs have out leveled such things.
Most DMs either scale their world, or they hand-wave such encounters, presuming that they happened but were so insignificant that they aren't worth mentioning.
The thing is, while a Fire Storm or a pair of Fireball spells would have routed the bandits in the blink of an eye, the fact remains that you spent those spells on something today, and thus may not have them later on when something worthwhile comes along.
A 3rd level Bandit Chief, with a dozen archers in hiding, is pretty much used to being the biggest, baddest guy around.
And while higher level people will be able to gauge the effective levels of opposition based on Knowledge Dungeoneering or Knowledge Nature for most critters, or by simply observing how well equipped an adversary is, the low level types don't have such an option. They haven't got the skills or experience.
You can look at clothes and tell if they're common or well made. Well made might be magical, or they might just be expensive.
PCs see men in common clothing, no obvious personal jewelry, and they know that if these guys don't have any rings or amulets, they don't have any magic rings or amulets. If their weapons aren't at least master worked, you know for a fact that they aren't magical.
Soa Notice Obvious roll for anyone with any levels in Spot tells you if the "bandit troupe" you're facing are a speed bump or not.
The nobleman, however, was well dressed, with good quality gear, and a pack or formidable looking hounds. It takes an actual check to see what he's got. Something like Arcane Sight tells you a lot about a man with levels.
All that aside, I'm pretty sure I've mentioned before that I don't have my game world scale up with the PCs. There are still Orc raids along the borderlands, Highwaymen on the roads and petty evils out there even when the PCs have out leveled such things.
Most DMs either scale their world, or they hand-wave such encounters, presuming that they happened but were so insignificant that they aren't worth mentioning.
The thing is, while a Fire Storm or a pair of Fireball spells would have routed the bandits in the blink of an eye, the fact remains that you spent those spells on something today, and thus may not have them later on when something worthwhile comes along.
What books are you referring to? Source books or novels? When I look at source books and you look at NPC's in any given town, take the one in the DMG II, Saltmarsh. Population 3850. Every single member of the town counsel has core class levels. Cleric 10, Fighter 3, Druid 8, Cleric 10, wizard 1, bard 1...and that's ignoring their Aristocrat levels. There is a list of 35 "notable citizens," one who is a 12th level cleric. Here are the list of "other" citizens
So we see that over 10% of the population has PC grade class levels, and some of them are quite high...and that's people who have decided to settle down in Saltmarsh. There's no information on "adventurers" who are not considered part of the population but would definitely have class levels.
Bandit chief is the biggest baddest thing around? You mean until he runs in to one high level wizard? Or maybe a war party of trolls and ogres? Or maybe a Troll ranger decides to hunt his members one by one? What about the necromancer who's looking for new minions?
I didn't know that Know. of Dungeoneering and Nature worked against humanoids?
Clothes will tell you whether someone has money, that's about it. The won't tell you if they have money and don't spend it on clothes or if they simply don't value or have money to begin with. Nor does one know if the rings and amulets and cloaks are in fact magical or, just as you suggest, expensive. You can't tell if someone is wearing rings, if they have gloves on over them. Or the amulets, necklaces, periapts, bracers, etc are worn under a cloak or armor. What about that sack she's carrying? Is that a Bag of Tricks? Doesn't hold Figurines of Wondrous Power? And let's be honest, items are low down on the list when there are a number of spell casting classes that can wear armor.
It's an open question of how distinguishable a masterworks sword is from a knockoff. Ever been to a concert? What about local band at a bar? Can you tell from the audience whether their instruments are the equivalent of masterworks by construction? Remember, people don't have brand names in D&D like they do in RL. So it's not like you can see that the sword is a Rolex or a BMW. I also not to sure you're going to have a time to check the quality of a sword while someone is swinging it at you. As I mentioned, it's not like magical swords are always shiny, never get dirty, and have bright neon labels indicating they are high quality. At least in our campaign someone had to do an Appraisal and that requires time to actually study the item, swing it, check its sharpness, etc. Not plausible from 60 yards away on horseback, or conversely, when you're hiding in the bushes waiting to spring a trap.
What's funny is that your own anecdote proves my point. When you have spell casters (not just those who look like Wizards) that can wipe out a small army of soldiers...I think that changes the "highway robber" or robin hood sustainability quite a bit. Your chief got wiped out in one round. Stories like that are going to percolate throughout society and across the nation. You won't find too many robbers jumping people they don't know or have never seen. They'll only rob people they know, people they can intimidate.
A similar thing has happened with the local mafia in the US. Organize crime usually exploits their own ethnicity when they are small time.
IMHO, D&D has a major problem with plausibility and societal behavior. We've all seen the discussions on the absurdity of a real economy in D&D. That problem extends to the day-to-day flow of real towns and by an order of magnitude when it comes to adventurers.
The truth is there's no way to know what the world would be like if the things in D&D really existed. IMO, it's like replicators or teleporters in Star Trek. Those things would so fundamentally change the world, it's impossible to accurately predict how society would adjust to them.
Other Citizens: Barbarian 10, barbarian 3 (5), barbarian 1
(3); bard 9, bard 4 (2), bard 2 (4), bard 1 (8); cleric 8, cleric
4 (2), cleric 3 (2), cleric 2 (4), cleric 1 (12); druid 4, druid
2 (2), druid 1 (4); fi ghter 3 (6), fi ghter 2 (4), fi ghter 1 (8);
monk 6, monk 3 (2), monk 1 (4); paladin 5, paladin 2 (2),
paladin 1 (4); ranger 1 (4); rogue 9, rogue 3 (4), rogue 2 (5),
rogue 1 (8); sorcerer 4, sorcerer 2 (2), sorcerer 1 (4); wizard
7, wizard 3 (2), wizard 1 (4); adept 7, adept 3 (2), adept 2
(5), adept 1 (11); aristocrat 7, aristocrat 3 (2), aristocrat 1
(19); expert 1 (57); warrior 1 (55); commoner 1 (3,275)
(3); bard 9, bard 4 (2), bard 2 (4), bard 1 (8); cleric 8, cleric
4 (2), cleric 3 (2), cleric 2 (4), cleric 1 (12); druid 4, druid
2 (2), druid 1 (4); fi ghter 3 (6), fi ghter 2 (4), fi ghter 1 (8);
monk 6, monk 3 (2), monk 1 (4); paladin 5, paladin 2 (2),
paladin 1 (4); ranger 1 (4); rogue 9, rogue 3 (4), rogue 2 (5),
rogue 1 (8); sorcerer 4, sorcerer 2 (2), sorcerer 1 (4); wizard
7, wizard 3 (2), wizard 1 (4); adept 7, adept 3 (2), adept 2
(5), adept 1 (11); aristocrat 7, aristocrat 3 (2), aristocrat 1
(19); expert 1 (57); warrior 1 (55); commoner 1 (3,275)
So we see that over 10% of the population has PC grade class levels, and some of them are quite high...and that's people who have decided to settle down in Saltmarsh. There's no information on "adventurers" who are not considered part of the population but would definitely have class levels.
Bandit chief is the biggest baddest thing around? You mean until he runs in to one high level wizard? Or maybe a war party of trolls and ogres? Or maybe a Troll ranger decides to hunt his members one by one? What about the necromancer who's looking for new minions?
I didn't know that Know. of Dungeoneering and Nature worked against humanoids?
Clothes will tell you whether someone has money, that's about it. The won't tell you if they have money and don't spend it on clothes or if they simply don't value or have money to begin with. Nor does one know if the rings and amulets and cloaks are in fact magical or, just as you suggest, expensive. You can't tell if someone is wearing rings, if they have gloves on over them. Or the amulets, necklaces, periapts, bracers, etc are worn under a cloak or armor. What about that sack she's carrying? Is that a Bag of Tricks? Doesn't hold Figurines of Wondrous Power? And let's be honest, items are low down on the list when there are a number of spell casting classes that can wear armor.
It's an open question of how distinguishable a masterworks sword is from a knockoff. Ever been to a concert? What about local band at a bar? Can you tell from the audience whether their instruments are the equivalent of masterworks by construction? Remember, people don't have brand names in D&D like they do in RL. So it's not like you can see that the sword is a Rolex or a BMW. I also not to sure you're going to have a time to check the quality of a sword while someone is swinging it at you. As I mentioned, it's not like magical swords are always shiny, never get dirty, and have bright neon labels indicating they are high quality. At least in our campaign someone had to do an Appraisal and that requires time to actually study the item, swing it, check its sharpness, etc. Not plausible from 60 yards away on horseback, or conversely, when you're hiding in the bushes waiting to spring a trap.
What's funny is that your own anecdote proves my point. When you have spell casters (not just those who look like Wizards) that can wipe out a small army of soldiers...I think that changes the "highway robber" or robin hood sustainability quite a bit. Your chief got wiped out in one round. Stories like that are going to percolate throughout society and across the nation. You won't find too many robbers jumping people they don't know or have never seen. They'll only rob people they know, people they can intimidate.
A similar thing has happened with the local mafia in the US. Organize crime usually exploits their own ethnicity when they are small time.
IMHO, D&D has a major problem with plausibility and societal behavior. We've all seen the discussions on the absurdity of a real economy in D&D. That problem extends to the day-to-day flow of real towns and by an order of magnitude when it comes to adventurers.
The truth is there's no way to know what the world would be like if the things in D&D really existed. IMO, it's like replicators or teleporters in Star Trek. Those things would so fundamentally change the world, it's impossible to accurately predict how society would adjust to them.
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