Alt Tumble rules

[XCorvis]

There's a difference between BAB and total attack bonus. I agree, total attack bonus is too much. But 10+BAB is a good target. The rogue can get ahead of the fighter based on the initial first level +3 ranks, the +2 synergy bonus from jump, dexterity modifier, and skill increasing items, spells, and/or feats.

For those that think BAB scales too quickly, you can use 10+Base Reflex Save as that scales slower than BAB, but BRS is hard to get from stats. (You wouldn't want to use total reflex save because it includes things like resistance bonuses.)

I made up a chart of Tumble Vs BAB and looked at how it turned out. It's kind of hard to judge because it's an opposed roll, but with all the possible bonuses to tumble compared to basically no possbile bonuses to BAB, as long as a dedicated tumbler (max ranks, 18 dex and tumble focus) is going up against a poor or fair BAB enemy approximately within their challenge rating, they basically can't loose. (That's an exageration, but the odds are strongly in favor of the tumbler.) I decided that was too strong and to even it up it should at least be BAB+Dex or Str. I'm considering just using the same value as an "unarmed melee attack" (not an actual unarmed attack, just the same value). Then bless, magic fang and such would add to it, but other than an amulet of mighty fists and ability boost items there are really only temporary modifiers to it.

 

[DerHauptman]

Why post in House Rules if you think everything is fine?

Discussion - sometimes I even post something just to be the devil's advocate too....

You're the first person to mention realism in this entire thread, so I'm not really sure who you're arguing with here.

Not really arguing with anyone...see the above...

 

[DarkKestral]

I might consider one attempt at a tumblers getting one opposed roll vs the opponent's BAB + last power attack AB penalty + offhand weapon penalty. Defenders can choose to use an AoO attempt if they have more than one weapon to attempt an AoO with a different weapon they are currently wielding than than any they have currently used. This way, sword-n'-board types are hardest to get past on the initial chance, and power-attacking types have to choose power attack without AoO chance or less damage, but a greater chance of making AoOs. TWF fighters would have a slight penalty, but would have a chance to make it up on a second chance hit, albeit at the cost of an AoO attempt, which may lose them a fairly high amount of damage. This may also nerf PA a bit vs. sword-n'-board and TWF, and provides flavor similar to the classic uses of the latter two styles.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I made up a chart of Tumble Vs BAB and looked at how it turned out. It's kind of hard to judge because it's an opposed roll, but with all the possible bonuses to tumble compared to basically no possbile bonuses to BAB, as long as a dedicated tumbler (max ranks, 18 dex and tumble focus) is going up against a poor or fair BAB enemy approximately within their challenge rating, they basically can't loose. (That's an exageration, but the odds are strongly in favor of the tumbler.) I decided that was too strong and to even it up it should at least be BAB+Dex or Str. I'm considering just using the same value as an "unarmed melee attack" (not an actual unarmed attack, just the same value). Then bless, magic fang and such would add to it, but other than an amulet of mighty fists and ability boost items there are really only temporary modifiers to it.

There's also the Acrobatic feat for another +2 on Tumble, +2 Synergy Bonus for 5 ranks in Jump (which I forgot about in my first post in this thread: a 2nd level human rogue could potentially have a +16 Tumble skill!)

Also, there are common cleric spells and bardic abilities which will bump up the skill, too. And don't forget, Stat boost spells and items can affect the Rogue Tumbler just as much as the Fighter he's doing handsprings around. And I love the visual of someone using "Aid Other" on a Tumble Check to help someone vault over the BBEG.

So I say keep the opposed check simple, allow the defender his normal attack roll, and allow Dodge bonuses to apply. I mean, if you're going let feats like Skill Focus (Tumble) apply, why wouldn't the Weapon Focus feat apply to the attack roll? Also, by allowing penalties to apply, the tumbler is going to have a better chance getting by the guy who's still a little off-balance from his last Power Attack.

DarkKestral, ditto on the Keep it Simple. I'm not sure what you're suggesting is terribly different than just using a regular AoO roll.

I'm still leaning to the Tumbler just making his check and have that serve as his AC for the AoO, if it's better than his existing AC (-2 for each additional check in the round, -10 for tumbling thru opponent; beat DC 15 or stop before entering opponent's square.) This addresses Sqwonk's initial concern by eliminating the opposed roll by the defender; he just takes the AoO if he wants.