Alt Tumble rules

[Sqwonk]

..."plus all that at -10 for the full-speed tumble..."

Where is the "full speed tumble" rule written?

 

[Ilium]

It's in the Tumble skill description.

Accelerated Tumbling: You try to tumble past or through enemies more quickly than normal. By accepting a –10 penalty on your Tumble checks, you can move at your full speed instead of one-half your speed.

 

[Vahktang]

I like setting the DC to 10+Attack. Fixed DCs seem unfair... I could train and train and train to be able to hit anything that moves, having an attack bonus of more than a hundred, and yet you can ALWAYS get past me with a DC 15 check. That's just wrong.

Fixed DCs also put very little incentive in getting better at the skill.

I do agree that an opposed roll slows combat down a little too much. Too many rolls. But making it so the opposed side is always "taking 10" on his side of the opposed roll seems to work well enough for me.

And it is just as easy to move through a kobald with a pointed stick as it is to go past a CR 20 pit fiend - straight DC 25 role. That's just wrong, too.

I treat it like bluff:
Opposed role, tumble vs Base attack plus sense motive.
Many higher level monsters have an OK sense motive rolls.
And strength or dex shouldn't count against professionalism.
It makes sense.

 

[SteelDraco]

The way I do it is based on a Reflex save. If you're trying to tumble past someone, you make a Tumble check, and they make a Reflex save. If you don't beat a 15 with your Tumble check, they can make an AoO, regardless of their Reflex save. If you do beat a 15, then it's an opposed roll - if their Reflex save is higher, they can take the AoO.

Tumbling through someone gives you a -10 to your Tumble check.

I did it this way so that the really fast people, like rogues and monks, are the ones that are difficult to tumble past. I didn't want to use opposed Tumble checks because I wanted everybody to have a chance at resisting a tumble, though.

 

[Stalker0]

And it is just as easy to move through a kobald with a pointed stick as it is to go past a CR 20 pit fiend - straight DC 25 role. That's just wrong, too.

However, take your point and flip it around.

It is just as hard to move past a kobald then it is CR 20 pit fiend, both of them can take one AOO. The pit fiend with its massive power and awesome is relagated to the same camp as a kobald.

AOOs are an abstraction used for game balance. In my opinion allowing a tumbler free movement past opponents is fine, they are putting themselves near melee anyway where the multiple attacks and the real pain come in.

 

[Vahktang]

However, take your point and flip it around.

It is just as hard to move past a kobald then it is CR 20 pit fiend, both of them can take one AOO. The pit fiend with its massive power and awesome is relagated to the same camp as a kobald.

AOOs are an abstraction used for game balance. In my opinion allowing a tumbler free movement past opponents is fine, they are putting themselves near melee anyway where the multiple attacks and the real pain come in.

Good point.
But no matter the CR, it's just a swing as they pass by.
Only Hydras would get more than one chance.

 

[Justin Bacon]

Tumble: DC15 or 25 to go through occupied square.

So at about 10th level a rogue can auto-tumble around even if it is the uber BBEG.

We have been playing a variant - The opponnent makes an attack role vs. the tumble check. if he "hits" he has the opportunity to make an AoO. He then makes another attack role to see if he hits - vs AC.

This works ok - but adds another 2 dice rolls to already busy combat.

What do other folks use for Tumble? RAW? Something else?

Basically the same, except the opponent doesn't reroll his attack roll. Basically, the rule looks like this:

You can attempt to Tumble past someone and avoid AoOs. The AoO misses if your Tumble check is greater than the opponent's attack roll. (Essentially, the Tumble check result becomes your Armor Class against the AoO if it's higher than your regular AC.)

Works like the Mounted Combat feat.

Tumbling through an opponents square works the same way (no penalty), but you have to succeed at DC 25 with your check -- otherwise you run into them, stop before you enter their square, and provoke an AoO (which your Tumble check doesn't help you avoid).

 

[Justin Bacon]

2. The tumbler eats up an attack of opportunity from the opponent. So one tumbler can tumble by and then everyone else can go by unphased (unless the opponent happens to have Combat Reflexes).

I don't think this is a problem. If the guy attempting the AoO is focusing his attention on trying to hit the guy cartwheeling madly past him, it makes sense that he's not going to have time to focus his attention on other people running past (unless, as you say, he has Combat Reflexes).

 

[Justin Bacon]

However, take your point and flip it around.

It is just as hard to move past a kobald then it is CR 20 pit fiend, both of them can take one AOO. The pit fiend with its massive power and awesome is relagated to the same camp as a kobald.

Except that the pit fiend is far more likely to hit you and will deal more damage when he does, so it's not "just as hard" -- it's harder to move past the pit fiend.

 

[maggot]

Except that the pit fiend is far more likely to hit you and will deal more damage when he does, so it's not "just as hard" -- it's harder to move past the pit fiend.

By the standard rules, that's not true once the rogue in question has +14 on his tumble check, which in my campaigns is about 5th level (8 ranks, +2 synergy, +4 dex). Once you have +14 tumble, the kobold and the pit fiend hit you exactly the same percentage of the time: 0%. And they do exactly the same amount of damage: 0 damage. That is what this thread is trying to address.