Altering the cleric to fit a non-war god

I ran into this same problem with my homebrew. The Cleric Class as is jus didn't fit a lot of the church's inlfuences or dogma. So i just just pared down the base Cleric class and then each cleric (or Aspecter) would pick which church he was a member of and that would define his weapon pros, armor pros, and class skills, as well as Domains of course. That has worked out great so far.
 

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Irda Ranger said:

That's some great advice! I am not sure how balanced that last thing about Haste is, but I do really like it. Combine that with the Travel Domain's Free Action 1 rd./ day/ level and you can get out of most things I guess

Fast Movement 10 and Endurance are spot on, I think I would like to go with that. I have Relics & Rituals, so I will look there for more "Fharlagn"-y type spells. If anyone has any suggestions, please shoot.

I will bring these ideas to my DM (the wife ) and keep you posted. Thanks.

Irda Ranger

Glad I could help. :)

It would be interesting to do this kind of tweaking for all the PHB deity-aligned clerics. I think it could be a good resource for NPCs if nothing else. If one really wanted to, they could really delve into each deity, create something akin to the Slayer's guides, "The Worshipper's Guide to Fharlangyn" including:

Tweaked class abilities(bread and butter of this post)
Doctrines/Principles of the Deity
A few short prayers/liturgical texts for Roleplay.
Include the writeup from Deities and Demigods
Layout of a Cathdral/small temple/shrine to this god
Several PrCs
New Spells and Tweaked Spell Lists
Magical Items created by X's clerics
History of the god
Typical worshipper prejudices(similar to White Wolf prejudices ie Kord - Brawn doesn't help when you're stuck in a situation you can't bash your way out of. Avoid these meatheads at all cost)
Holy Symbols/Banners
Preferred Offerings.

Whaddaya think?
 

Amator said:
Glad I could help. :)

<snip some excellent ideas>

Whaddaya think?

I think that's great! I am at work right now, so I can't elaborate too much, but i think that creating a "template" to describe religions is a good way to go.

I do have one quip though. When I played Mage many years ago, I thought that the "prejuidices" were a good insight into the way certain groups saw things, but I think that they limited the scope of what a character's vision could be. I noticed that they were rarely positive or saw the strengths of the other groups' calling. I would want to avoid that.

But on the whole, I like it. I think that I would include something about "Orders" of the religion. One order might be more Bard-focused, one more Merchant, etc.


Graf said:
Many characters don't use all aspects of their class to their fullest. There are a lot of high-dex fighters who don't use heavy armor. But I wouldn't give him something for that.

Without lowering the clerics strengths significantly (hit points, bab, spells & saves) its hard to for me to see giving the special abilities (fast movement, or lore) of other classes.

But what are class abilities except a reflection of the training that your character has received. Would my characters' teacher have spent time training me to wear and care for Full Plate armor, knowing that I would never use it, or would he have taught me skills more useful to the practice of our craft?

Am I am willing to give up special abilities. Fgharlagn just doesn't seem the Undead fighting type (not the way Pelor is anyway). I would give that up for something more appropriate.

Anyway, got to get to work. Will post again later.

Hong --> will check out your priest this evening. (I guess next moring for you. You're Down Under, right?)

Irda Ranger
 

Irda Ranger said:

Hong --> will check out your priest this evening. (I guess next moring for you. You're Down Under, right?)

Indeed, I am located in Sunny Austria, the Land Down Under. Where kangaroos roam the mountain tops, and the jolly natives are woken each morning by the sonorous droning of alpenhorns and didgeridoos in concert, along with the crystal voices of the Vienna Boys' Choir. They are giving me a real headache, let me tell you.

As to the priest ;) on rereading your original post, it probably won't be quite what you're looking for. In fact, the OA shaman itself may be more suited to your concept (different spell list and all). The only change necessary might be to replace the martial arts feats with a different pool of bonus feats.

Click here and have a look at the "druid" class.
 

From Someone Who's Played This Very Cleric

I played a cleric of Fharlanghan for 10 levels, so hopefully I can give some advice. You can do this without changing the cleric class. The cleric is only one of the most versatile classes in the game.

Ability Scores: Dex and Intelligence were my best scores (other than Wisdom, of course). A cleric of travel in heavy armor and made nigh-immobile is just silly. You want to be able to move... hell, the Freedom of Movement ability given by the Travel domain might just make you wriggle free of that heavy armor. Make sure your Dex is high enough for the Mobility tree of feats, and that it gives you a decent Dodge bonus to AC. Make Intelligence high enough that you can get the Expertise feats if you want. If you want to be Mr. Mobile Not-Gonna-Get-Hit cleric, Strength is a dump stat.

Skills: Heal, Knowledge (Religion), and Wilderness Lore (a class skill if you take the Travel domain). If you can spare the points (which you really can't), drop some into Climb, Spot or Listen, or Jump.

Feats: As a human, my starting feats were Dodge and Mobility. I then took Brew Potion and Craft Wand, but I regretted that. If I were to do it all again, I'd get Spring Attack and Expertise. The idea is to make it so that as long as you know what's going on, you're almost impossible to hit in combat, and those who try to hit you will never get more than their one partial attack. For an added bonus, get Improved Initiative, so that your flat-footed round will be over more quickly.

Spells: Always take "Spontaneous Cure" and "Turn Undead". You'll be a NG cleric, so you won't have the option, but I was True Neutral. If you have the option of taking the Positive Energy Channeling, do so.

Domains: I took Travel and Luck, both great Domains. I saved the party multiple times by using Dimension Door to get behind a nuking enemy wizard and putting my dagger to his throat. Protection is good, too, but as a Neutral cleric, my character was more interested in having Luck on his side.

Weapons: Crossbow. Love it. Your Dex will be higher than your Strength by far, most likely, so things like crossbows and thrown weapons are for you. You won't get a Str bonus to damage, but you wouldn't get that for your melee weapons either most likely, and you'll have a much better chance to hit with missile weapons. A crossbow is also great for hitting things from the back lines, which is where you should be. Grab yourself a masterwork or magical quarterstaff, too. Why Q-staff? It's Fharley's favored weapon. Role-play.

Armor: Chain shirt. It's about as good as it gets in light armor. Grab yourself a light shield if you need one.

Prestige class: Go for Contemplative from Defenders of the Faith. You'll get a free Prestige Domain, which should be Celerity. The Celerity domain gives you an effective +2 Dex, if I remember correctly, and it will give you access to Haste-family spells as domain spells. Fharlanghan smiles on you. You'll give up Turn Undead progression, and your Hit Die will drop to d6, but that's fine... You weren't Turning Undead that much anyway, and no one can hit you to begin with.

So now you have a fast, dextrous, smart, and mobile cleric with a crossbow and light armor. You'll be able to apply a +1 to any one enemy, gain a +4 AC bonus against attacks of opportunity made when you're moving through someone's threat range, make Spring Attacks to force attackers to make a greater-than-5' step (thereby forfieting their full attack), skim to-hit bonuses to add to your AC, and gain a +4 to your Initiative to make sure your Dodge bonuses count. As long as you're not flat-footed or caught in a corner, you should be nearly unhittable. Not to mention that the Travel domain gives you essentially your level in rounds of Freedom of Movement, which even dispells Paralysis, and in no time you'll be flying, teleporting, and Air-Walking.

All without futzing with the Cleric class itself.

-Tar
 

hong said:
Indeed, I am located in Sunny Austria, the Land Down Under. Where kangaroos roam the mountain tops, and the jolly natives are woken each morning by the sonorous droning of alpenhorns and didgeridoos in concert, along with the crystal voices of the Vienna Boys' Choir. They are giving me a real headache, let me tell you.

One of us must be cracked up, because that made about as much sense to me as an elephant on roller-skates. And it certainly doesn't answer my question in any clear way ... ;)

As to the priest ;) on rereading your original post, it probably won't be quite what you're looking for. In fact, the OA shaman itself may be more suited to your concept (different spell list and all). The only change necessary might be to replace the martial arts feats with a different pool of bonus feats.

Actually, the Priest is perfect! Multi-class that with Bard and you've got _exactly_ the character concept I was looking for. I really don't want to come across as a brown noser (not to suggest that you can't wipe properly :) ), but "the wife" was getting exasperated with my class fiddling and was suggesting something very similar to this.

Well, no Increased Movement :( , but there's always the Boots of Standard Equipment (er, I mean, Striding & Springing :D ).

Tar, I definately see where you are going with your class idea, but didn't it bother you that you couldn't scribe scrolls or make magical items? That would bother me. I am _sure_ that as a human, one of my 1st level feats is going to be Scribe Scroll. I think I will go Spellcasting Prodigy for the other one.

Regarding the X-Bow and Chain shirt: Way ahead of you. Until I multiclass and pick up the MW Mighty Short Bow +1 (yeah baby).

I have to agree with you that Travel is a great domain. Love it, love it. I like Luck's special ability, but the spell list does nothing for me. Not when compared to Protection. So I went that route. If you take a look at Hong's Priest, they get a Third domain at 11th level. so it looks like I can't avoid Luck, since Fhargly only has three to offer.

Hong - a question about the priest: How much playtesting do you have for this? It seems to be almost too good to be true. Great spellcasting, plenty of feats, turn undead, no armor or weapon restrictions (sure they aren't offered, but just one level of some Fighter-type solves that), d6 HD, Divine Favor @ 5th. Have you played in groups with this? Or gotten forumn feedback?

Would love to know how this class doesn't dominate in game. Obviously the BAB progression hold you back, but I was wondering what other "checks" there are on this character. Just seems generous.

Cheers,

"Irda Ranger" - Australian for "Ogre-Sniper"

Edit --> Does anyone else think that it's unhealthy that I still crack up every time I read my own sig? The wife does ...
 
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Irda Ranger said:

Actually, the Priest is perfect! Multi-class that with Bard and you've got _exactly_ the character concept I was looking for. I really don't want to come across as a brown noser (not to suggest that you can't wipe properly :) ), but "the wife" was getting exasperated with my class fiddling and was suggesting something very similar to this.

Ta!

Well, no Increased Movement :( , but there's always the Boots of Standard Equipment (er, I mean, Striding & Springing :D ).

I have a feat somewhere on my website that increases your base speed by 50%. But the prereqs are hefty....

Hong - a question about the priest: How much playtesting do you have for this? It seems to be almost too good to be true. Great spellcasting, plenty of feats, turn undead, no armor or weapon restrictions (sure they aren't offered, but just one level of some Fighter-type solves that), d6 HD, Divine Favor @ 5th. Have you played in groups with this? Or gotten forumn feedback?

How much playtesting? None. Free stuff is worth what you pay for it. ;)

However, I don't think it's really overpowered. The basic features are pretty much the same as the shaman in OA, and presumably _that's_ been playtested. Compared to the cleric, it gives up a good Fort save, cleric BAB, d8 HD, and armour proficiencies, which are a major deal. (You also get more skill points, but I see that more as compensating for how clerics don't get enough skill points in the first place.)

You can multiclass to fighter to get the BAB and proficiencies back, but you give up spellcasting levels for that. And really, that's exactly what the fighter/priest combo is meant to represent: the "crusader" or "war priest" schtick. If you want to be better at fighting, you tradeoff some of your raw spellcasting ability.

The bit that's most likely to be wonky is the turn/rebuke fiends ability at 14th level. Demons and devils tend to have low HD for their CR, so it's hard to strike a balance between blowing mariliths and balors out of existence, and making the ability useless. What I've got on the page is that fiends get turn resistance +5, but it might be a good idea to use what's in the ELH instead, where they get turn resist equal to half their SR.
 

Irda Ranger said:

Tar, I definately see where you are going with your class idea, but didn't it bother you that you couldn't scribe scrolls or make magical items? That would bother me. I am _sure_ that as a human, one of my 1st level feats is going to be Scribe Scroll. I think I will go Spellcasting Prodigy for the other one.

Well, I did sorta want to make magical items, mostly because my party needed them, but that was because the GM was being stingy and eventually I took over the GM role. If I were to be completely true to my concept, I would have taken the exact path I advised to you, but rarely do things turn out that way. I ended up taking Brew Potion and Craft Wand because we had no mages and three or four good front-line tanks, and people were just getting hurt all the time. I needed tons of healing power, and I needed it yesterday.


Regarding the X-Bow and Chain shirt: Way ahead of you. Until I multiclass and pick up the MW Mighty Short Bow +1 (yeah baby).

I had no plans to multiclass unless it was to ranger (it just makes RP sense for a cleric of Travel to be a ranger) or to Contemplative. Still, if you're going to be Father Archer, definitely get that MW Mighty Short Bow +1. :)


I have to agree with you that Travel is a great domain. Love it, love it. I like Luck's special ability, but the spell list does nothing for me. Not when compared to Protection. So I went that route. If you take a look at Hong's Priest, they get a Third domain at 11th level. so it looks like I can't avoid Luck, since Fhargly only has three to offer.

Not necessarily true. If you're using Prestige domains, Fharley allows the Celerity domain, as well as one or two "Everyone Has It" Prestige domains like Summoning. The Contemplative class mentions specifically that you get two Prestige domains by the time you're level 10 in the class, though, so your GM might not allow it. Really, Celerity is a must for a true cleric of Fharley. To me, it's payback for completely swearing off of heavy armor and front-line fighting.

To me, from an RP standpoint, my cleric wasn't about staying in one place long enough to even research and craft wands. He was with this party because they traveled a LOT (from the area near P'Bapar in Tellene to the Dragon Empire in Dragonstar....) and they never really stayed anywhere for long. Before meeting the party, he stayed on the road with various caravans, adventuring parties and the like, helping keep them in "fighting shape" as they traveled. If my party hadn't needed so much healing help, I would never have taken the Item Creation feats I took. Looking back and rethinking my concept for the character, it seems almost like OOC metagaming to have taken them. ;)

I love the character, though, and I'm sure you'll love yours. The thing I like best about clerics is the wide variety of clerical types you can create. A cleric of the Traveler won't be the same as a cleric of a healer or a priest of the god of slaughter. Brilliant.
 

Tar Markvar said:
I love the character, though, and I'm sure you'll love yours. The thing I like best about clerics is the wide variety of clerical types you can create. A cleric of the Traveler won't be the same as a cleric of a healer or a priest of the god of slaughter. Brilliant.

And I guess that about sums it up. I suppose the next paragraph belongs in the Rogues Gallery, but ...

I see my guy as always dusty, from the road. His boots are well worn, almost worn down. His staff is both practical and for self defense. If you see a glint of mail under his shirt, well, he's a priest, not a trusting fool.

I don't know his name yet, but many people won't. They will only know him as a teller of tales. True ones. (Bard) And a doer of deeds. Good ones. (Priest)

He has taken a vow of wandering, not to settle down or stay in one place. When paths become familiar, he finds new ones.

Why does he travel? To encourage others to travel by setting an example. Why should they travel? Because once you see the world, you bring it with you, like a breeze at your back; and everywhere you go is larger, wiser and richer because of it ...

Irda Ranger
 
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