Alternate Form after Shadow Strength Damage

[Jack Simth]

The Shadow has a very special form of strength damage:

Strength Damage (Su)
The touch of a shadow deals 1d6 points of Strength damage to a living foe. A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow dies. This is a negative energy effect.

Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds.

Bearing in mind that damage translates between forms (and I as the DM read that as Strength damage, too) if, after taking a lot of strength damage from a Shadow, someone uses Alternate Form (or similar abilities) to become something that has a lower strength score than the amount of damage that's been applied (e.g., turning into a str 8 halfling after having taken 10 strength damage) does the "A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow dies" clause apply?

 

[darthkilmor]

The Shadow has a very special form of strength damage:

Bearing in mind that damage translates between forms (and I as the DM read that as Strength damage, too) if, after taking a lot of strength damage from a Shadow, someone uses Alternate Form (or similar abilities) to become something that has a lower strength score than the amount of damage that's been applied (e.g., turning into a str 8 halfling after having taken 10 strength damage) does the "A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow dies" clause apply?

Well technically, you could argue it was the alternate form that reduced the strength score, not the shadow. I would say in that case you're simply on the ground helpless. Maybe there's something in the rules compendium ?

 

[Jack Simth]

Well technically, you could argue it was the alternate form that reduced the strength score, not the shadow. I would say in that case you're simply on the ground helpless. Maybe there's something in the rules compendium ?

Don't have the rules compendium - Errata's supposed to be free, after all.

That ruling is basically what I went with at the table, though - I don't really want to kill a PC over something that simple.

 

[eamon]

That sounds like a good ruling to me. Since the strength damage dealt by the shadow isn't tracked separately (you don't have separate damage pools for shadow and non-shadow strength damage), the only sane rule is that the shadow's damage must deal the final blow in order to be lethal - the killing effect is instantaneous, not some permanent, tracked effect. That would mean that a creature heavily strength damaged by other sources would just have bad luck if then hit by a shadow and thereby drops to 0 strength.

 

[Arkhandus]

The Shadow has a very special form of strength damage:

Bearing in mind that damage translates between forms (and I as the DM read that as Strength damage, too) if, after taking a lot of strength damage from a Shadow, someone uses Alternate Form (or similar abilities) to become something that has a lower strength score than the amount of damage that's been applied (e.g., turning into a str 8 halfling after having taken 10 strength damage) does the "A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow dies" clause apply?

Yes, that clause applies. The character was still reduced to 0 Strength by the Shadow's ability, they just voluntarily lowered their Strength while still under the effects of that damage. Poor berk.

 

[darthkilmor]

Yes, that clause applies. The character was still reduced to 0 Strength by the Shadow's ability, they just voluntarily lowered their Strength while still under the effects of that damage. Poor berk.

What if only half of their strength damage came from a shadow? What if it was only 1 point of strength damage? : \

 

[eamon]

Yes, that clause applies. The character was still reduced to 0 Strength by the Shadow's ability, they just voluntarily lowered their Strength while still under the effects of that damage. Poor berk.

Consider a hypothetical creature which has taken 1 point of strength damage from a shadow, and 1 point elsewhere. It then changes into a form with 2 strength, and its strength drops to 0. Would it die?

If that creature has received lesser restoration for 1 point, and is then damaged again by a non-shadow strength damage source for 1 point before changing shape. Which strength damage point is cured? Would this creature die?

What if two different shadows had dealt the strength damage, each one point. A killed victim turns into a shadow under the control of its killer - but who is it's killer?

The only consistent way to rule the shadow's killing strength damage is that the kill-and-create-spawn effect only kicks in if the shadow is strikes the killing blow. If for some reason the strength score changes later (via another source of strength damage or drain, via shape-changes, or even via a different shadow's strength damage touch), then that effect does indeed cause the victim to drop to 0 strength - but that doesn't retroactively active the shadow's lethal ability - for that, the shadow actively needs to reduce the creature to 0 strength.

 

[Arkhandus]

It doesn't matter. The Strength damage lingers until it is removed, and it stacks with other Strength damage. It is always 'active', always reducing the character's Strength by that amount. If something else lowers their Strength score, the Shadow's Strength damage is still in effect, and once the creature's Strength hits 0, the Shadow's ability triggers. It's undead mojo is still afflicting the character.

It could be argued that the ability only works when the Shadow hits someone and they go down to 0 Strength immediately, but I hardly think that would be the right rules interpretation.

Since an ability score cannot go below 0, you could do that to yourself to become paralyzed at 0 Strength and become immune to the Shadows; their Strength damage could never reduce you to Strength 0 because you're already at Strength 0, and Shadows can't hurt you any other way. You'd be immune until your shapeshifting effect wore off (or whatever it was you used to lower your Strength).

At that point, your accumulated Strength damage may reduce you to 0 again (if possible, I forget if you can even accumulate more damage to an ability score than its current score), in which case you either die and become a Shadow (if my interpretation is correct), or you're still scot-free and immune to the Shadows' effect, just lying paralyzed for a day until you naturally heal 1 Strength damage (or until a cleric casts Lesser Restoration on you).

 

[Christian]

Since an ability score cannot go below 0, you could do that to yourself to become paralyzed at 0 Strength and become immune to the Shadows; their Strength damage could never reduce you to Strength 0 because you're already at Strength 0, and Shadows can't hurt you any other way. You'd be immune until your shapeshifting effect wore off (or whatever it was you used to lower your Strength).

This sounds to me like a great reason to rule the other way, whether or not it's RAW, actually. It's even more ridiculous to be able to make yourself immune to Shadow strength-draining by draining your own strength. :\

Makes for easier bookkeeping & more believability, IMO. Very simple: A Shadow attacks you. After the attack, check your net Strength. If 0, then die and become a shadow. If >0, no other effect--regardless of later changes to your net total.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This sounds to me like a great reason to rule the other way, whether or not it's RAW, actually. It's even more ridiculous to be able to make yourself immune to Shadow strength-draining by draining your own strength. :\

Don't forget - while under the effects of a Ray of Enfeeblement, "The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1". You don't even need to paralyze yourself!

Makes for easier bookkeeping & more believability, IMO. Very simple: A Shadow attacks you. After the attack, check your net Strength. If 0, then die and become a shadow. If >0, no other effect--regardless of later changes to your net total.

What happens if you've taken Str damage from a Shadow, and Con drain from a Wraith, and then take the alternate form? Str and Con both drop to 0... do you rise as a Shadow or a Wraith?

-Hyp.