Alternate History: Magic The Gathering Never Exists. What Changes for D&D?
- Thread starter WayneLigon
- Start date
BroccoliRage
First Post
I'm not touchin' this one with a ten foot pole.
jmucchiello
Hero
More likely D&D gets mired in copyright and trademark disputes with ownership split among various hostile factions. With the disolution of TSR it becomes impossible to buy those rights because you have to make deals with several different and mostly uninterested parties. D&D as a RPG product goes the way of the dodo. White Wolf and GW's warhammer are the only things poised to fill the void.Sejs said:
And I cannot believe no one said it but: EN World would not exist. Eric Noah would have no 3rd edition rumors to collect. He might have a small blog on the web but would even 1% of today's ENWorlders even know or care about it? All the ENWorld celebs would be just another random gamer you probably don't notice at the various gaming conventions. Origins would exist but would GenCon still be around? If so it's still in Milwaukee and it probably never shows it's face in SoCal or Europe.
Literally thousands of print and PDF products would not exist. And while TSR's demise would end the moritorium on putting AD&D stuff on the web. It would be far less coherent and balanced as it would be based on 2E for the most part.
So when you need your ENWorld fix, remember to thank you favorite diety for Richard Garfield, WotC, and the smash sensation that M:tG became.
Steel_Wind
Legend
I don't think TSR goes under at all. I don't think Iron Crown Enterprises goes bankrupt either. West End Games does not vanish. Grenadier continues. Ral Partha continues. RAFM minaitures eeks it out. Global Games survives. Last Unicorn Games arises - and continues. All kinds of things unfold in unexpected ways... Perhaps FASA remained quite healthy and was never bought out.
Moreoever, if ICE never went under, then Dark Age of Camelot ends up being a VERY different MMO (it was initially based on Rolemaster but ICE caused the dev to dump it when ICE ran into difficulty over unsold dice and cards and a floundering RPG.)
And ICE does not lose its chance to make a killing off of
Lord of the Rings as a polished and well supported RPG setting - which is certainly what would have happened.
West End Games and Global Games would have had a chance to make a fair bit of dough with Star Wars right when Phantom Menace comes out - and I don't think they would have screwed it up as much as WotC and Hasbro did - moreoever - they wold have been content to have the game a popular also-ran, instead of trying to make it into a powerhouse in the market and bailing on it when massive sales did not transpire.
With both West End and ICE - it was horrible timing that pushed them under a year before their respective moments. Take away M:TG - I don't think they go under at all.
I'm not even sure the Random House hit happens. A lot of those novels were dumped out there in a desperate attempt to create brand awareness for a floundering game. And AD&D was floundering because the market had been wrecked by M:TG.
Moreover, I think generally, that a number of competitive small RPGs and miniatures companies continue to be manufactured and the industry does not change a great deal. It meanders on.
Magic:TG was a disaster for RPGs. Kids who got into it skipped over RPGs entirely and went straight to computer games. Whereas before AD&D had been the main "feeder game" with players learning RPGs from AD&D and then churning off to play different systems - all of that just plain broke in its entirety for three years+. The echo of that effect on those companies who relied on churn from TSR to provide them with new customers took the hit later - but they got hit by the same bus.
It wreaked havoc on the industry for nearly seven years as a result.
And it wreaked havoc on a stable market model that manufacturers, distributors and retailers understood.
There are no flats of unsold Spellfire, unsold Dragon Dice - and there is a lot less unsold RGP material. And as a result - there is no massive glut of novels churned out and no massive hit that nearly slays the company.
Perhaps Lorraine Williams gets out of the business - perhaps not. I really don't know. Probably she does at some point.
While BioWare would probably not have been a suitor at the stages discussed in one of the above scenarios - they would have been later and if not - someone else would have bought it for the computer game licensing angle. And then does what Microsoft did with Battletech: it keep the computer rights and license the rest off to someone who will continue to make the PnP RPG and promote your brand - while not frustrating your computer game design goals from time to time through IP approval.
Interestingly, if TSR does not go under and is NOT bought by WotC that in turn was gobbled up by Hasbro - then there is no firesale or exclusive grants over WotC IP to Atari nee Infogrames when they sold off Hasbro Interactive.
The whole D&D computer brand changes a fair bit as a result.
And I think a D&D MMO would have emerged earlier and with better funding.
Might be that the company - Blizzard say - might have snapped it up at some point and changed the game quite a bit. Could be the D&D brand might have ended up at the heart of the best-selling MMO.
Who knows?
I do think CCGs were a disaster for the RPG industry in the mid-90s and that many of those ills could have been avoided - at least in the short term.
It might be that otherwise, things might not be that different.
I don't think d20 and the OGL would somehow never have come to pass. The impetus to do that came from other market trends - and those trends don't go away because of CCGs.
Moreoever, if ICE never went under, then Dark Age of Camelot ends up being a VERY different MMO (it was initially based on Rolemaster but ICE caused the dev to dump it when ICE ran into difficulty over unsold dice and cards and a floundering RPG.)
And ICE does not lose its chance to make a killing off of
Lord of the Rings as a polished and well supported RPG setting - which is certainly what would have happened.
West End Games and Global Games would have had a chance to make a fair bit of dough with Star Wars right when Phantom Menace comes out - and I don't think they would have screwed it up as much as WotC and Hasbro did - moreoever - they wold have been content to have the game a popular also-ran, instead of trying to make it into a powerhouse in the market and bailing on it when massive sales did not transpire.
With both West End and ICE - it was horrible timing that pushed them under a year before their respective moments. Take away M:TG - I don't think they go under at all.
I'm not even sure the Random House hit happens. A lot of those novels were dumped out there in a desperate attempt to create brand awareness for a floundering game. And AD&D was floundering because the market had been wrecked by M:TG.
Moreover, I think generally, that a number of competitive small RPGs and miniatures companies continue to be manufactured and the industry does not change a great deal. It meanders on.
Magic:TG was a disaster for RPGs. Kids who got into it skipped over RPGs entirely and went straight to computer games. Whereas before AD&D had been the main "feeder game" with players learning RPGs from AD&D and then churning off to play different systems - all of that just plain broke in its entirety for three years+. The echo of that effect on those companies who relied on churn from TSR to provide them with new customers took the hit later - but they got hit by the same bus.
It wreaked havoc on the industry for nearly seven years as a result.
And it wreaked havoc on a stable market model that manufacturers, distributors and retailers understood.
There are no flats of unsold Spellfire, unsold Dragon Dice - and there is a lot less unsold RGP material. And as a result - there is no massive glut of novels churned out and no massive hit that nearly slays the company.
Perhaps Lorraine Williams gets out of the business - perhaps not. I really don't know. Probably she does at some point.
While BioWare would probably not have been a suitor at the stages discussed in one of the above scenarios - they would have been later and if not - someone else would have bought it for the computer game licensing angle. And then does what Microsoft did with Battletech: it keep the computer rights and license the rest off to someone who will continue to make the PnP RPG and promote your brand - while not frustrating your computer game design goals from time to time through IP approval.
Interestingly, if TSR does not go under and is NOT bought by WotC that in turn was gobbled up by Hasbro - then there is no firesale or exclusive grants over WotC IP to Atari nee Infogrames when they sold off Hasbro Interactive.
The whole D&D computer brand changes a fair bit as a result.
And I think a D&D MMO would have emerged earlier and with better funding.
Might be that the company - Blizzard say - might have snapped it up at some point and changed the game quite a bit. Could be the D&D brand might have ended up at the heart of the best-selling MMO.
Who knows?
I do think CCGs were a disaster for the RPG industry in the mid-90s and that many of those ills could have been avoided - at least in the short term.
It might be that otherwise, things might not be that different.
I don't think d20 and the OGL would somehow never have come to pass. The impetus to do that came from other market trends - and those trends don't go away because of CCGs.
Last edited:
Slife
First Post
Lizards of the Mountains release Wizards - The Ingathering at around the same time as MTG would have been released normally. Virtually everything in the alternate universe plays out the same, except goatees are the height of fashion for men and Diaglo consistantly espouces the virtues of the new D02 system. Nightfall presents the Scabbed Islands as his new setting.
Oh, and for some reason there are a buncha zepplins everywhere.
Oh, and for some reason there are a buncha zepplins everywhere.
Mighty Veil
First Post
Coffee boy, Mark Burnett , is talking to a TV producer about creating a reality show. His original concept is 16 people left on a tropical island. But when Bone Thugs-N-Harmony offer to sell D&D, the whole concept changes.
16 people left at a table to battle monsters while lost in a dungeon. The last person standing is the survivor of Dungeons & Dragons (Thursday nights on CBS).
Richard Hatch stuns the world by having his thief pull off a sweet flank attack, which not only kills the final encounter but his final opponent. He is the first survivor of D&D.
The new plateform is a success and imitators begin to appear. The Amazing WoD Race being the most successful of them. Contestants travel through the World of Darkness. Through vampire territory, through werewolf lands, through the umbra. The show reaches it peeks with a PR stunt of allowing Boston Rob and Amber to bring into the game their 9th level thief and 10th level magic user.
Bone Thugs-N-Harmony win the California by-election after Govenor Davis steps down. Arnold makes Conan 3. Teens and Koreans are too busy standing in lines to watch Conan 3 to notice a new game, World of Warcraft. Peter Jackson meets a mysterious woman in a line-up, joins a dooms day cult, and is never seen again. LotR films are never released.
After 8 seasons D&D is moved to Sunday nights and eventually cancelled. The rights are quickly adopted by Angelina Jolie, thinking D&D is a child from a 3rd world country. The rights are sold to Paris Hilton during a game of Celebrity Poker. She puts the rights up on the open market in 2006. They are bought up by Hasbro, who announce a new edition! To which fans of D&D whine and complain about.
16 people left at a table to battle monsters while lost in a dungeon. The last person standing is the survivor of Dungeons & Dragons (Thursday nights on CBS).
Richard Hatch stuns the world by having his thief pull off a sweet flank attack, which not only kills the final encounter but his final opponent. He is the first survivor of D&D.
The new plateform is a success and imitators begin to appear. The Amazing WoD Race being the most successful of them. Contestants travel through the World of Darkness. Through vampire territory, through werewolf lands, through the umbra. The show reaches it peeks with a PR stunt of allowing Boston Rob and Amber to bring into the game their 9th level thief and 10th level magic user.
Bone Thugs-N-Harmony win the California by-election after Govenor Davis steps down. Arnold makes Conan 3. Teens and Koreans are too busy standing in lines to watch Conan 3 to notice a new game, World of Warcraft. Peter Jackson meets a mysterious woman in a line-up, joins a dooms day cult, and is never seen again. LotR films are never released.
After 8 seasons D&D is moved to Sunday nights and eventually cancelled. The rights are quickly adopted by Angelina Jolie, thinking D&D is a child from a 3rd world country. The rights are sold to Paris Hilton during a game of Celebrity Poker. She puts the rights up on the open market in 2006. They are bought up by Hasbro, who announce a new edition! To which fans of D&D whine and complain about.
Remathilis
Legend
Slife said:
Well played sir, well played.
LightPhoenix
First Post
Steel_Wind said:
I'm not one for what-if scenarios, but I have to disagree with this. M:tG had very little to do with the preponderance of kids getting into computer games. That was pretty much completely the natural evolution and convergence of console systems - Atari, Nintendo, Sega, and Sony - and affordable widespread home computer usage (with all the benefits of CPUs) in the US and Japan. While D&D and M:tG both had influences on console gaming, it's grossly inaccurate to say that either brand acted as a primary feeder to get kids into video games. They may have acted as a primary feeder for console RPGs, perhaps - but until recently that was a very small slice of the video gaming market.
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