alternate metamagic methods?

[woodelf]

First, not sure if this is the right forum--it's sort of a D&D question, but not about the actual D&D rules.

I'm looking for suggestions for alternate ways to implement metamagic. I'm not happy with the D&D3(.5)E technique where you have to pay a feat, and pay by using a higher level slot, and have to somehow predict ahead of time which spells to apply metamagic alterations to. It just seems like too many costs for the benefit. So, i want to change it. And, as long as i'm at it, i thought i'd see what ideas people have. I'm already familiar with Arcana Unearthed--a vast improvement in my mind. Specifically, the way that the use of slots enables applying metamagic on the fly for everyone. OTOH, i'm not sure whether the use of ladening instead of higher-level slots (in general) is an improvement--thoughts?

Also, someone mentioned [in another thread] an alternate take on metamagic feats that appeared in Dragon a while ago--anyone care to summarize that?

I'm not particularly committed to any element of the existing system for metamagic--i've even wondered about allowing at least some of the more-minor metamagic changes (altering area, frex) without a feat--you just have to pay the higher-level slot. Or, alternately, doing the inverse: once you have the feat, you don't need to also use higher-level (or more) slots. So, what do people suggest?

 

[Oni]

Well this should probably go in the house rules forum, but I'm sure a nice admin will come along shortly and move it, so I'll go ahead and reply.

Just brainstorming alternate ways of doing metamagic could be any number of things. Increasing the casting time. increasing the number of spell slots used to remember the spell (this could be it takes more of a similar level or just a certain number of spell slots i.e. for a stilled fireball it would take a third level spell slot for the fireball and a first level spell slot for the stilled), it would be done with some sort of HP damage or ability damage depending on how powerful the feat was, it could be done by applying a costly material component (think power component sort of thing).

 

[Goobermunch]

Here's a completely unexamined, unbalanced idea . . .

For each spell level above the memorized level, take that much temporary ability damage. F'rex: Casting a quickened MM. Take 4 pts. ability damage (con probably, maybe dex or str or some combination of the above).

--G

 

[the Jester]

Let's see, you could make it dependent on Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana/religion/nature) or something else rather than feats.

You could increase the casting time (a full round for a +1 level, two full rounds for a +2 level metamagic, etc... though this leaves Quicken kinda tricky).

I don't have AU, but the Mini HB has some 'sudden metamagic' feats that you use on the fly but may only use a couple of times/day.

You could also bundle metamagic feats- Lesser Metamagic could let you do any +1 effect, Metamagic any +2, Greater Metamagic any +3, Superior Metamagic +4, etc... though if it's a chain, the drawback is that you need four feats to quicken your spells. This variant would work better with a bunch more tailorable effects per feat.

You might consider allowing xp burn in place of higher level slots.

Hope at least one of these ideas provokes something good!

 

[RuminDange]

Other metamagic option

IMC what I allow is using any metamagic on the fly as a full round casting option, and it takes up either a spell slot of higher level equal to the metamagic slot or 1 + metamagic slot increase of the same level of spell.

Example: Maximized Magic Missiles either requires a 4th level slot or 4 1st level slots.

This has proven very handy for all around and actually made metamagic feats used, they were never going to be used otherwise and no one likes sacrificing the spell slots for a maybe useful spell. Metamagic feats were only being taken if a PrC required it and that was the only reason before the change.
Spellcasters can still prepare metamagic spells ahead of time if they want. The cost is the same, but the casting time is normal. Quicken is the only metamagic feat that cannot be done on the fly as the full round casting time defeats the purpose.
Adding more than one metamagic feat on the fly doesn't increase the casting time beyond 1 full round, but requires more and more spell slots of the same level or so many levels higher.

Example: Maximized Silent Magic Missile either requires a 5th level slot or 5 1st level slots.

However, note I don't allow mixing of slots to meet the expenditure. it's an either or thing.

Hope that helps.
RuminDange

 

[Silveras]

First, I will summarize the version that appeared in Dragon (#305, IIRC), since I have recently done so in a discussion regarding the minis handbook's Sudden Metamagic feats.

The system in Dragon was a replacement for the standard metamagic in the PH (it is, I believe, expected to appear again in Unearthed Arcana). Once per day, you could apply the metamagic to a spell without preparing it beforehand (for prepared spellcasters) or increasing the casting time (for non-prepared casters). To apply the same metamagic more than once per day, you must take the feat again (you get 1 additional use each time). The modified spell level must still be a spell within your maximum spell level to use each day. If you cannot use 4th level spells, for example, you cannot use metamagic that would (normally) modify the spell's level above 3.

If you wish to apply more than 1 metamagic feat to a spell (or the same one twice, if you had taken the featr more than once), you add the level adjustments together, and the modified spell level must still be one you could cast.

For example, let us say that your spellcaster can cast 4th level spells. Maximize Spell adds 3 to the effective level of the slot required. A Maximized Magic Missile is Ok, as 1 + 3 is less than or equal to 4. However, the same caster could not Maximize and Acid Arrow, as 2 + 3 is greater than 4.

I dislike the way this was presented in Dragon, as it reversed the level adjustments of the regular feats and described them as a "cap" on the level of spell you could apply the metamagic feat to. Possibly easier to use at the table, but harder to evaluate as an alternative to the standard system.

Now... on to alternatives.

I like the idea of metamagic, but it needs to be limited somehow. Modifying the effective slot helps to prevent abuses, but is prohibitively expensive (in the eyes of some players -- like mine). I also like the idea of spontaneous metamagic, but again, it needs to be constrained in some way to be fair to the Fighter and Rogue.

The problem with making it a Spellcraft check (or any other skill) is that the DCs do not rise with the characters' levels. Eventually (especially if you play at epic levels), *every* spell will be cast as some combination of Maximized / Empowered / Quickened / Extended because the player will have put huge skill ranks into Spellcraft (the same skill can be used for all spellcasters, because it is a class skill for all of them except Paladin and Ranger).

Perhaps the answer is to "tone down" the effects of the feats, so that they can be used more often without being unbalancing. Something like:

Variant Extend Spell adds a +4 Competence bonus to the effective caster level for purposes of level-based Duration factors.

Variant Empower Spell adds a +2 Competence bonus to the effective caster level for purposes of level-based intensity of effects (damage dice, number of HD affected, etc.)

Variant Enlarge Spell adds a +4 Competence bonus to the effective caster level for purposes of level-based Area or Range calculations

Variant Silent Spell - The caster must make a Caster Level check against a DC of 15 + the spell level to ignore the verbal component of any spell. Spells which are Sonic or Language-Dependant cannot be cast silently. Failure causes the caster to suffer a magical mishap (table of Bad Things (TM) to follow).

Variant Still Spell - The caster must make a Caster Level check against a DC of 20 + the spell level to ignore the somatic components of any spell. Failure causes the caster to suffer a magical mishap (table of Bad Things (TM) to follow).

 

[Gez]

Here's my own rule.

Take an example metamagic feat, Transmogrify Spell.

Transmogrify Spell [Metamagic]
You can cast spells that are transmogrified.
Benefit: You may cast a spell that has <interesting side effect you may want>. Casting a transmogrified spell requires a spell slot X level higher. Spellcasters who prepare their spells must prepare it with the transmogrification in advance; spontaneous spellcasters need an extended casting time.

And when you apply my house-rule, it become:

Transmogrify Spell [Metamagic]
You can cast spells that are transmogrified.
Benefit: You may cast a spell that has <interesting side effect you may want>. You may transmogrify a spell you cast 4-X times per day. The spell must be no higher than your highest-level spell slot minus X.
Spellcasters who prepare their spells in advance may choose to prepare a transmogrified spell. The spell takes up a spell slot X level higher than normal.
Spontaneous spellcasters who have used all their daily allotment of spell transmogrification may cast more transmogrified spells, but then they must use a spell slot X level higher and the casting time is increased.


What if X is equal to 4 or more, you say? Then, you can't use that metamagic the sudden way... Except there is this other feat:

Extra Metamagic [Magic]
You can use metamagic more frequently.
Prerequiste: Any two metamagic feats.
Benefit: Instead of using a metamagic feat 4-X times per day, you may use it a number of times per day equal to your Spellcasting Ability Modifier+1-X times per day.