Alternate Psionic Combat system

[gpetruc]

Considering that I don't like the normal psionic combat rules (ineffective, it's mostly a waste of PP).
I was thinking of a possible alternate psionic combat system using rules similar to those in the Skills & Powers: Psionics (a NetBook for the 2nd edition).

Here is a very basic beta version of the rules:
MBAB and MAC
Each psionic character has mind base attack bonus (MBAB): psionic use the cleric BAB table, psy warriors use wizard BAB table.
Also, there is the mind armor class (MAC) equal to 10 + will save modifier.
Flatfooted psionics can't add their Wis modifer to their MAC.

Non Psionics
Non psionics receive a +5 modifier to MAC except against the Mind Blast attack; they also convert all damage in stunning on a 1 point to 1 round basis
Option: if they take a number of damages greater than their total will save they are knoked unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds.

Attacks and Full Attacks
A character can make attacks (and full attacks if MAB > +5): chooses the psionic attack mode, rolls 1d20 + MBAB + ability modifer (depending on the attack used) against opponents MAC + defense modifier (using the normal tables).
(Maybe one could rule that using Mind Blast with the cone area of effect is a full attack, while using it against a single character is a normal attack, just for balance)
Defenses
Defenses can be put on as a reaction (if not flatfooted) and remain on for one minute (or until another defense is put up, dismissing the other).
After one attack the attacker knows what defense the defender has raised, and so he can change attack mode (but all attacks from a full attack must be made with the same attack mode).
Criticals
Psionic attacks trigger a critical on 19-20/x2 (one could make this different for every attack, of course). A character that is wounded by a critical hit is stunned for one round.

Options
Then we could have all the possible feats and attack options:
Reckless attack (a la charge): as a full attack, make a single attack with a +2 bonus; if it hits double the base damage from that attack (but not additional damage coming from feats, magical items or other abilities). You receive a -4 AC bonus for the next of the round.
Fighting defensively: use this option only when making at least one psionic attack. You take a -4 penalty on all your attacks, but you receive a +2 MAC bonus until your next round.
Mind power attack: take a penalty to all your attack rolls in this round that cannot be greater than your MBAB. you add one third of that value to the damage of your psionic attacks.
Improved Psionic Critical makes 17-20 threat range for one attack (requires MBAB 8+).
....

What do you think of he idea (the details are stil to fix, and also the balance) ?
Anyone is intersted in giving me some suggestions to be able to write down a final version of these rules (we could send it to the NetBook of Psionics) ?

 

[Nifft]

Here's my (untested) Psi Combat concept:



Defense: Invest a number of Power Points in a "Buffer". They are not consumed, but they are also not available for short-term use. They do not count as "in reserve" for Feats which require a PP reserve.

You may recover PP from a Buffer at the rate of one per manifester level per round as a free action. You may invest a similar amount each round as a free action -- though you cannot both invest and recover in the same round. As a standard action (which draws an AoO), you may invest any number of PP in a buffer.

Each PP invested adds one to your Defense Roll.


Attack: Expend a number of PP as though you were manifesting a Power of any level up to the highest you can manifest. The level of the Power whose cost you decide to pay is your Attack Level.

Each Attack Level adds one to your Attack Roll.


Resolving Psi Combat:
Defense Roll = Will save + Buffer + d20
Attack Roll = Manifester Level + Attack Level + d20

If the attacker wins, the defender loses any points in her Buffer. If the defender had no Buffer, she loses PP: 1d6/Attack Level. If she has run out of PP, she takes additional damage as subdual damage.

If the defender loses, she suffers no ill effects, and the attacker's PP are expended harmlessly.


Variant: Psi Power Attack
The attacker may split his Attack Level into Strike Level and Penetration Level. He adds only his Strike Level to his Attack roll, but inflicts extra PP damage after overcoming a Buffer: he deals an extra 1d6/Penetration Level to the defender's reserve if his attack succeeds.


-- Nifft

 

[Dinkeldog]

Hey, Nifft. I'm going to go through and "tear it apart". That doesn't mean that I don't like the base concept, but there seem to be some tactical errors in places that could use some tweaking yet.

Here's my (untested) Psi Combat concept:



Defense: Invest a number of Power Points in a "Buffer". They are not consumed, but they are also not available for short-term use. They do not count as "in reserve" for Feats which require a PP reserve.

This still requires psions to keep a number of points held back, which keeps it pretty much unusable at lower levels. My issues with this is first for games that start at 1st level, and second for games where someone might want to multiclass for a level or two of psion or psionic warrior. Such a character just doesn't have the PP to begin with, and makes the multiclassing option untenable.

You may recover PP from a Buffer at the rate of one per manifester level per round as a free action. You may invest a similar amount each round as a free action -- though you cannot both invest and recover in the same round. As a standard action (which draws an AoO), you may invest any number of PP in a buffer.

Your manifester level turns out to be one more point than the maximum allowed for a psionic character to spend (PsiHB p. 23), so you can start with all your points in the buffer and freely pull out enough points each round for any power that you have and want to use anyway. I'm not sure that's what you were going for.

Each PP invested adds one to your Defense Roll.


Attack: Expend a number of PP as though you were manifesting a Power of any level up to the highest you can manifest. The level of the Power whose cost you decide to pay is your Attack Level.

Each Attack Level adds one to your Attack Roll.


Resolving Psi Combat:
Defense Roll = Will save + Buffer + d20
Attack Roll = Manifester Level + Attack Level + d20

If the attacker wins, the defender loses any points in her Buffer. If the defender had no Buffer, she loses PP: 1d6/Attack Level. If she has run out of PP, she takes additional damage as subdual damage.

So if I have 1 PP in my buffer, I just lose that 1 PP?

Also, you're Attack Level is (PP+1)/2, so it's going to go up at half the rate of the buffer. Granted, Manifester Level will go up much faster than Will Save, so that probably evens out.

If the defender loses, she suffers no ill effects, and the attacker's PP are expended harmlessly.

I think you mean if the defender wins.

Variant: Psi Power Attack
The attacker may split his Attack Level into Strike Level and Penetration Level. He adds only his Strike Level to his Attack roll, but inflicts extra PP damage after overcoming a Buffer: he deals an extra 1d6/Penetration Level to the defender's reserve if his attack succeeds.

Does the penetration work even if I've lost my 1 PP from my buffer against your massive 6th level assault?

I think overall, it's a good effort. The main problems are still 1) that psi-combat is a massive PP vacuum, 2) psi-combat severely discourages someone from picking up a level or two of psion or psy warrior because it fits their character concept, and 3) the only threat to your buffer comes if you're up against a much superior foe. Until then, you can just run around with everything in your buffer with little fear.

 

[Nifft]

Hey, Nifft. I'm going to go through and "tear it apart". That doesn't mean that I don't like the base concept, but there seem to be some tactical errors in places that could use some tweaking yet.

No worries. It's for the strength of the system, and I'd rather have a working system than be "right" on the first try. If only someone had ripped the designers a new one when they came up with the current system...

This still requires psions to keep a number of points held back, which keeps it pretty much unusable at lower levels. My issues with this is first for games that start at 1st level, and second for games where someone might want to multiclass for a level or two of psion or psionic warrior. Such a character just doesn't have the PP to begin with, and makes the multiclassing option untenable.

I think some defensive Feats would be in order if the system turns out to be tenable. First of all, Will save goes up in non-psionic classes, so your Defense score won't suffer too badly. You won't be an effective psi-attacker, but that's not a dabbler's goal.

Your manifester level turns out to be one more point than the maximum allowed for a psionic character to spend (PsiHB p. 23), so you can start with all your points in the buffer and freely pull out enough points each round for any power that you have and want to use anyway. I'm not sure that's what you were going for.

Large Buffer = limited meta-psionics and lower effective use of Schism, but not totally disabling -- yeah, I think it works okay.

So if I have 1 PP in my buffer, I just lose that 1 PP?

Yup, you can easily defend against a single attacker. If two Psions are attacking, though, you are screwed if you use a "sacrifice buffer" like that. This is the psi-combat equivalent of Flanking.

Also, you're Attack Level is (PP+1)/2, so it's going to go up at half the rate of the buffer. Granted, Manifester Level will go up much faster than Will Save, so that probably evens out.

Does the penetration work even if I've lost my 1 PP from my buffer against your massive 6th level assault?

Yup, that's what Power Attack does -- subtracts from Attack roll and adds to Damage.

It's also listed as a Variant becuase the "sacrifice defense" ought to work as a foil against a single attacker -- which keeps dabblers in the game -- while not preserving your talents from a concerted, co-ordinated attack -- which gives the specialist benefits above the dabbler.

Maybe Psi-Power Attack should be a Feat, just like regular Power Attack.

Hmmm... that gives me an idea. Psi-Expertise, which allows you to add a portion of your Manifester Level to your Defense Roll for a round, while subtracting that number from your Manifester Level for all other purposes that round.

I'd also allow "Critical Hits" on a natural 20, which doubles your effective attack level (the level you bought with PP, not your Manifester level), and does normal damage if it pierces the Buffer, or double damage if you had no Buffer.

-- Nifft

 

[Dinkeldog]

No worries. It's for the strength of the system, and I'd rather have a working system than be "right" on the first try. If only someone had ripped the designers a new one when they came up with the current system...




I think some defensive Feats would be in order if the system turns out to be tenable. First of all, Will save goes up in non-psionic classes, so your Defense score won't suffer too badly. You won't be an effective psi-attacker, but that's not a dabbler's goal.

I hate the idea of more feats. To this end, I think the Mind's Eye fix that gave you meta-psi attack abilities "alterations" that you took instead of modes works better. The last thing that the game needs is more feats that you really need in order to be an effective character.

Large Buffer = limited meta-psionics and lower effective use of Schism, but not totally disabling -- yeah, I think it works okay.

Just limited use of schism. The maximum you can meta-psi your powers is to a total cost equal to your level. So you're only limited if you're in schism. I don't know if that would prove all that limiting. By the time you're at 6th level, you should have a dorje or two with useful powers you would want to cast.[/quote]

Yup, you can easily defend against a single attacker. If two Psions are attacking, though, you are screwed if you use a "sacrifice buffer" like that. This is the psi-combat equivalent of Flanking.

I'll give you that, as my current main group has myself and one other playing psionically endowed characters.

Yup, that's what Power Attack does -- subtracts from Attack roll and adds to Damage.

It's also listed as a Variant becuase the "sacrifice defense" ought to work as a foil against a single attacker -- which keeps dabblers in the game -- while not preserving your talents from a concerted, co-ordinated attack -- which gives the specialist benefits above the dabbler.

Maybe Psi-Power Attack should be a Feat, just like regular Power Attack.

I'd rather it be an "alteration".

Hmmm... that gives me an idea. Psi-Expertise, which allows you to add a portion of your Manifester Level to your Defense Roll for a round, while subtracting that number from your Manifester Level for all other purposes that round.

I'd say a decent idea, but it puts a greater impetus to not engaging in psionic combat at all. Or to always make a half-hearted attempt in schism and then follow up with a real power to keep your defenses way up.

I'd also allow "Critical Hits" on a natural 20, which doubles your effective attack level (the level you bought with PP, not your Manifester level), and does normal damage if it pierces the Buffer, or double damage if you had no Buffer.

Probably a good thing.

 

[Nifft]

I hate the idea of more feats. To this end, I think the Mind's Eye fix that gave you meta-psi attack abilities "alterations" that you took instead of modes works better.

Under this system, there's no such thing as "modes", so the psionic classes are going to get SOME kind of a benefit in its place -- why not bonus Feats, selected from Meta-Psionic, Psionic and Psionic Item Creation?

Just limited use of schism. The maximum you can meta-psi your powers is to a total cost equal to your level. So you're only limited if you're in schism. I don't know if that would prove all that limiting. By the time you're at 6th level, you should have a dorje or two with useful powers you would want to cast.

Erp, didn't know that. Okay, limit the power drawn from or put into the Buffer as a free action to merely (Manifester leve +1)/2; but you can still put any number of PPs in as a standard (spell-like) action.

I'll give you that, as my current main group has myself and one other playing psionically endowed characters.

There should also be some psionic powers which raise your defense level, but lower your attack level. Psionic Shell or something like that. Dabblers could buy a Dorje or a Power Stone with that Power.

I'd say a decent idea, but it puts a greater impetus to not engaging in psionic combat at all. Or to always make a half-hearted attempt in schism and then follow up with a real power to keep your defenses way up.

Well, IMHO Psi Combat should be rare. It's not as effective in most circumstances as just killing the opposition. However, unlike Magic, Psi can happen with hands bound and mouth gagged, so there has to be SOME way to subdue a rogue Psion -- and I think that Psi Combat fits that niche.

-- Nifft