Alternate XP systems

[Blue]

Something I liked when I read it but haven't tried was Rob Donoghue's Achievement based leveling.

http://walkingmind.evilhat.com/2018/07/14/achievements-and-levelling-up/#comment-195925

I was thinking that you introduce a bunch of milestones, and need to accomplish X of them to level, with each level bringing more. These would be chosen by system mastery (at low levels) and a combination of player-provided goals and campaign arc milestones.

So to get from 9th to 10th for a Wizard who is an ancestor of Tenser and facing an invasion of otherworldly abominations.

Complete four of:
[] Cast ten spells using 5th level slots in meaningful ways.
[] Put a spell by Tenser you don't know into your spellbook.
[] Research the magic-reflective aura the abominations had at a major library or with a learned sage.
[] Find an appropriate gift and propose to Jilliandra.
[] Help defeat three different types of the abominations and study their corpses.
(Plus any left over from 8th, but not before)

The first one, if it's not the one skipped, gives a minimum period of time to level - with one 5th level slot a day that's at least 10 days. The others are combonations of personal and campaign goals.

If I remember correctly, 7th Sea does something related to this, but it's been a while since I read it.

Don't know how it would work with 5e, but I think it would be interesting to try.

 

[S'mon]

I'm using:
__________
XP
PCs advance a level every 10 XP 1-3, 20 XP 3+, typically receiving 1 XP per significant encounter or achievement. Lower level PCs may receive additional XP, eg 1st level PCs adventuring alongside 5th level PCs may earn x2 XP.

Typical XP awards
Moderate encounter - 1
Minor quest achievement - 1
Major encounter - 2
Significant quest award - 2
Major quest award - 3
Deadly encounter 3-5
Carousing (100gp per PC level) - 1
Incredible carousing (1000gp per PC level) - 2
Doing a session account.- 1

XP Table

Level XP Needed
1 0
2 10
3 20
4 40
5 60
6 80
7 100
8 120
9 140
10 160
+1 +20
Beyond 20
At 20th level, every additional 20 XP earns 1 Advance that can be spent on either +2 to an attribute, +1 to two attributes, or a Feat. Attributes are still capped, though now at 22.
________________________

PCs have been averaging around 7-8 XP per session, so around 2.5 sessions to level after 3rd level. Which is quicker than my normal rate, but I'm enjoying it.

Advantages - it's a lot easier to track XP than in the core system. Advancement is a bit quicker. I can give encounter XP as what feels right, so eg a tough fight with weak foes always gets some XP; a big fight with lots of enemies killed doesn't give overwhelming XP. It avoids the 'weightless' feeling of milestone levelling, where advancement seems out of the blue & unrelated to achievements. Players still get to see the XP box fill up.

 

[Fanaelialae]

That seems very meta-gamey. What is the in-game reality which this mechanic is supposed to reflect? How does a character manage to sleep, without gaining any benefits of a rest?

To begin with, I don't have an issue with metagamey mechanics. Lots of mechanics are metagamey, including XP.

In fiction, however, it can be explained as the result of poor rest. Not enough to cause exhaustion, but sufficient to impede recovery.

 

[Staffan]

A thing to consider if you want to make a different XP system is that the current setup is designed so different levels take different amounts of time. Here's a spreadsheet showing the XP needed for various levels, how many XP each character gets for a Medium or Hard encounter by the DMG guidelines, and how many of those it would take to level. Looking at Medium encounters, the system suggests 6 of those for 1st and 2nd level, 12 for 3rd level, and then about 15 per level up to 9th level, with 10th taking slightly longer at about 18. After that, it speeds up, with about 10 encounters per level.

Now, this is not a perfect representation, because the XP-per-encounter guidelines are based on number-of-foes-adjusted XP which are only supposed to be used to judge difficulty, to actually be awarded (e.g. 4 orcs at 100 XP each are considered 800 XP when determining difficulty, but only grant 400 XP when defeated) and one might surmise that higher-level battles would have more minions involved. But it does show that the first few levels are supposed to fly by, then slow down, and then speed up a little at tier 3-4.

Of course, when making your own XP/level/milestone system you can do whatever you want, but I think it helps to know what the original system actually does before replacing it, so you can make an informed decision about whether or not to keep this feature.

 

[S'mon]

A thing to consider if you want to make a different XP system is that the current setup is designed so different levels take different amounts of time.

I agree - for my homebrew system I kept the double rate advancement 1-2 and 2-3, but went flat after that since I wasn't so keen on the fast advancement in Tier 3.

 

[5ekyu]

A thing to consider if you want to make a different XP system is that the current setup is designed so different levels take different amounts of time. Here's a spreadsheet showing the XP needed for various levels, how many XP each character gets for a Medium or Hard encounter by the DMG guidelines, and how many of those it would take to level. Looking at Medium encounters, the system suggests 6 of those for 1st and 2nd level, 12 for 3rd level, and then about 15 per level up to 9th level, with 10th taking slightly longer at about 18. After that, it speeds up, with about 10 encounters per level.

Now, this is not a perfect representation, because the XP-per-encounter guidelines are based on number-of-foes-adjusted XP which are only supposed to be used to judge difficulty, to actually be awarded (e.g. 4 orcs at 100 XP each are considered 800 XP when determining difficulty, but only grant 400 XP when defeated) and one might surmise that higher-level battles would have more minions involved. But it does show that the first few levels are supposed to fly by, then slow down, and then speed up a little at tier 3-4.

Of course, when making your own XP/level/milestone system you can do whatever you want, but I think it helps to know what the original system actually does before replacing it, so you can make an informed decision about whether or not to keep this feature.

However, I find that sometimes folks dig under the hood so much they start to imagine intent and purpose where it isnt. Its part of our dna to look for patterns, even if it means we see faces on mars.

But to contrast your thinking how important the level by level encounter count is to alternate xp systems... when they, you know, they, the designers in their DMG referenced session-based xp systems they went with...

1st to 2nd - 1 session
2nd to 3rd 1 session
3rd to 4th 2 sessions
Each level after that 2-3 sessions each.

They note that this will mirror the normal progression rate given four hour sessions.

So, see, they didn't say anything about speeding it up for 18-20th or one rate in tier-2 thru 9, higher at 10 only, then faster for 11 to... etc etc etc.

Seems like to them, those designers folks, they seemed to think what mattered, what the expectation was, was little more than " move thru the first couple levels in just a handful of sessions to get to the rest of the game which has a somewhat slower pace for the rest of the campaign."

So, I kinda get myself the idea that those peaks and valleys at 20th vs 9th vs 11th etc are a bit more mathematical flukes of numbers than intended changes in rate put in for "reasons that matter."

 

[Brashnir2]

However, I find that sometimes folks dig under the hood so much they start to imagine intent and purpose where it isnt. Its part of our dna to look for patterns, even if it means we see faces on mars.

But to contrast your thinking how important the level by level encounter count is to alternate xp systems... when they, you know, they, the designers in their DMG referenced session-based xp systems they went with...

1st to 2nd - 1 session
2nd to 3rd 1 session
3rd to 4th 2 sessions
Each level after that 2-3 sessions each.

They note that this will mirror the normal progression rate given four hour sessions.

So, see, they didn't say anything about speeding it up for 18-20th or one rate in tier-2 thru 9, higher at 10 only, then faster for 11 to... etc etc etc.

Seems like to them, those designers folks, they seemed to think what mattered, what the expectation was, was little more than " move thru the first couple levels in just a handful of sessions to get to the rest of the game which has a somewhat slower pace for the rest of the campaign."

So, I kinda get myself the idea that those peaks and valleys at 20th vs 9th vs 11th etc are a bit more mathematical flukes of numbers than intended changes in rate put in for "reasons that matter."

This is pretty much where I am. My group generally starts our campaigns at 3rd level, since that's when a class truly becomes what it's going to be, so having a relatively flat leveling time is in line with it.

I know the old grognard tradition is to have things get slower as you advance, but at some point that becomes un-fun for the players. D&D already has issues with scaling that cause high-level play to bog down. Adding additional time on top of that to the leveling curve means you spend a whole lot of time at a single level as you progress, which can get a bit stale for the players. I try to give my players about ~30-40 XP per session in my 100XP system, which is right in line with the "level every 2-3 sessions," outlined above.

 

[5ekyu]

This is pretty much where I am. My group generally starts our campaigns at 3rd level, since that's when a class truly becomes what it's going to be, so having a relatively flat leveling time is in line with it.

I know the old grognard tradition is to have things get slower as you advance, but at some point that becomes un-fun for the players. D&D already has issues with scaling that cause high-level play to bog down. Adding additional time on top of that to the leveling curve means you spend a whole lot of time at a single level as you progress, which can get a bit stale for the players. I try to give my players about ~30-40 XP per session in my 100XP system, which is right in line with the "level every 2-3 sessions," outlined above.

My campaign rule is tierx3-4 sessions is a level.

Current game started at 2nd, advanced to third after three, then to fourth after four (good break point.)

Now at 4th we actually hit a major multi-session challenge after 3 sessions and so we are waiting for that "three-session challenge" to end before we trip the level up to 5th. At that point tho, they will already be a session or two in towards 6th... but the journey from 5th to 6th will be six to eight sessions...

The reason we slow it down at 5th is that when we do faster pacing you rarely even get to use all your new toys once before you level up again. We want to see in play enough play sessions and challenges to get to use and get used to your new stuff for a level before you are leveling up more stuff.

otherwise, some of your gains from 5th may get spotlight-wise and in your own perception kinda lost in the shuffle by a quick 6th, etc.

Now, that said, our sessions are barely three hours long and tend to not include tons of combat scenes every session, so thats part of the reason we really liike having a few more sessions to let you "break in" your new stuff and let that "new level smell" get a good airing out.

That said, my special challenge "graduation day" from tier-1 to tier-2 to round out their level 4 to level 5 advancement is going great so far. They have gone through the prelims, the mid-card and are staring at the main event now and wondering "how the heck are we gonna pull this off?" and the real key to it may be the social encounters along the way. i think the ranger may be the only PC left with more than one spell slot and any HD left unspent as they finally stare into the defiled temple and the corrupted priestess with that severed head and infernal staff.

What could go wrong?

 

[Brashnir2]

My campaign rule is tierx3-4 sessions is a level.

Current game started at 2nd, advanced to third after three, then to fourth after four (good break point.)

Now at 4th we actually hit a major multi-session challenge after 3 sessions and so we are waiting for that "three-session challenge" to end before we trip the level up to 5th. At that point tho, they will already be a session or two in towards 6th... but the journey from 5th to 6th will be six to eight sessions...

The reason we slow it down at 5th is that when we do faster pacing you rarely even get to use all your new toys once before you level up again. We want to see in play enough play sessions and challenges to get to use and get used to your new stuff for a level before you are leveling up more stuff.

otherwise, some of your gains from 5th may get spotlight-wise and in your own perception kinda lost in the shuffle by a quick 6th, etc.

Now, that said, our sessions are barely three hours long and tend to not include tons of combat scenes every session, so thats part of the reason we really liike having a few more sessions to let you "break in" your new stuff and let that "new level smell" get a good airing out.

That said, my special challenge "graduation day" from tier-1 to tier-2 to round out their level 4 to level 5 advancement is going great so far. They have gone through the prelims, the mid-card and are staring at the main event now and wondering "how the heck are we gonna pull this off?" and the real key to it may be the social encounters along the way. i think the ranger may be the only PC left with more than one spell slot and any HD left unspent as they finally stare into the defiled temple and the corrupted priestess with that severed head and infernal staff.

What could go wrong?

Your sessions are quite a bit shorter than ours, so I think we end up around the same timing at the table in the end. We have periods of much combat, and then periods of not so much, but I don't feel like it's so fast that people aren't getting to use their stuff. We also only play once every 2-3 weeks - and sometimes longer than that - so that makes leveling feel slower in our group.

Sounds like you have come up with a good system for your group - glad it's working out.

 

[WaterRabbit]

I use the standard XP system. However, I give out XP for accomplishing objectives. For example, they PCs could get XP for killing 10 monsters. But if the objective is to just get past them, they get the same XP if they figure out a method to bypass them. Objectives might be set by me as the DM or they might be set by the players themselves. Some objectives could be hidden or bonus for accomplishing more than the objective. I try to assign my objectives using analog Challenge Ratings that stand in for monsters. Traps, puzzles, hidden loot, etc. all are worth XP. Also they get XP for defeating not necessarily killing monsters -- I try to discourage murder hoboery.