Level Up (A5E) Alternative pointbuy system

tetrasodium

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I’ve been thinking a good bit about the attribute array/pointbuy system in 5e & levelup thanks to thehow has df&d changed thread’s discussion on it & settled on some things that I miss about the older more generous & limited options. At the end of the day the difference between a specialist & the guy with a dumpstat just isn’t much until late in the game when the specialist has made significant investment. All of that creates problems in a few different areas depending on which side of the GM screen & style of attribute choices a playe makes



From a PC development standpoint that squeezes the generalist out from relevance & strongly pushes players to maxing out their primary stat before making other investments like feats. While the generalist might be able to hold their own alongside most specialists with magic items & do reasonably ok in a pinch compared to the PCs specialized away from a given area they no longer need that equipment& a +/-1 isn’t even meaningful alongside the d20 roll. The specialist by extension starts out not all that different in their niche & never really feels any pain for their “weak” area with a whole -1 on it so any gear that shoes up their weakness at all is only worthy of consideration if there is zero cost



From the GM’s side of things nobody has any weaknesses that are meaningful enough to feel so every magic item needs to be objectively better at someone’s specifically siloed niche or it’s a trash item never to be considered for any reason beyond what It will sell for. Without sidegrades as a meaningful option to dole out the inevitable overload & breakdown of the system happens faster. Worse yet the GM can’t get too creative with magic items early on because nobody has chosen any feats & hasn’t decided too strongly on their niche



I decided to fix that with a new pointbuy system with new point allocations. Firstly, I extended the buy options down to three and up to eighteen to widen the gap between specialist generalist and sacrificial dump stats to make them feel more meaningful

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Secondly I changed the point pool so all options have a larger pool than standard 25 & 27 point buy so just presenting an option doesn’t start with justifying a nerf. The names for each of them try to evoke things about how the various options shape parts of the campaign for both player & GM. I might not have always succeeded but the effort is there & can be shored up with some descriptive text

high power (48 point buy)

This will generate extremely powerful characters with few if any weaknesses. Characters should expect few if any magic items or a short campaign like a higher-level one-shot game started without magic items. Example stat arrays generated with this method are unlikely to have any weaknesses & be great in most areas.



Elite Characters (45 point buy)

Not only are these characters well above the average person, they are likely to be elites among elites. These characters don’t need magic items to excel & may not encounter many over the campaign.



Low Magic Campaign(42 point buy)

These characters are among the elite of the populace & fit well into a campaign with a wide range of semi-accessible magic items available in the world. Magic marts may not be a thing but it’s hard to not find magic gewgaws as you advance.



“Typical” 39 point buy

Characters are well above average in their field but may have some weaknesses. Magic items are relatively common and the time needed to engage in magic item crafting during a campaign is likely to be significant.

Low Power Campaign(36 point buy)

Characters are well above average but are likely to have weak areas. The campaign is likely to be one with magic marts & readily available directions to magic item crafting components. Alternately survival is certain to be a big factor in a campaign where characters need to bring their A game & work together
 

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I'm not sure if I understand this point buy system correctly

Apparently with the "high power option" (48 points), you're only able to make a character with all 10 (6x8 points) in its attributes.
Or if one wants to go crazy can make a character with a single 14 (18 points) and then all the other stats are at 8 (5x6 points)... Doesn't seem high power at all to me. The other options after even weaker, to the point that they are probably barely playable and definitely not fun unless all monsters are nerfed and DCs are lowered by like 5 points (which would totally defeat the purpose of having modifiers in the first place)

Also, I'm not sure I understand the goal. This system seems designed to incentivate some very extreme forms of min maxing
 

tetrasodium

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I'm not sure if I understand this point buy system correctly

Apparently with the "high power option" (48 points), you're only able to make a character with all 10 (6x8 points) in its attributes.
Or if one wants to go crazy can make a character with a single 14 (18 points) and then all the other stats are at 8 (5x6 points)... Doesn't seem high power at all to me. The other options after even weaker, to the point that they are probably barely playable and definitely not fun unless all monsters are nerfed and DCs are lowered by like 5 points (which would totally defeat the purpose of having modifiers in the first place)

Also, I'm not sure I understand the goal. This system seems designed to incentivate some very extreme forms of min maxing
I'm not sure that I understand your confusion. Very few characters are going to have any interest in a ten in all six stats. They might however decide some stats are undeserving of more than an 8 6 or even a 3 & spend those extra points saved elsewhere in one or more attributes that they want to excel at. Even a MAD jack of all trades character is going to have some ability scores that they simply don't need to consider & are unlikely to ever use much. The 15/14/13/12/10/8 standard array is non minmaxed in anything because it's just maxed across the board in everything a particular PC will need & even the areas it fails to max are hardly low enough to call "min" for the basically allmax array that qualifies for four different 13stat gated multiclass options.

The monsters don't need to be "nerfed" because the players now have more need & room to acquire magic items so zombies skeletons & kobolds can do that without needing to use much higher CR fiends & such. The default array & default pointbuy that powers it is so good that the room for equipment is squeezed out. Having lower starting attributes and/or a wider gap between one's good/great stats & poor/dump stats creates room to fill with equipment & takes far less math manipulation tha forcing the gm to manually add a few points to ac saves DC & tohit of every monster. Take this quote from page 501 of monstrous menagerie as an example of how much room there already is "You can raise or lower the monster’s Armor Class by one or two points without altering it in any other way. If you change its AC by 3 or more points, you should reduce or raise its hit points or damage per round by 5% per point of AC you varied from the base AC." The GM already has a lot of plates to keep spinning while running the game & every customized monster adds to that.
 

I'm not sure that I understand your confusion. Very few characters are going to have any interest in a ten in all six stats. They might however decide some stats are undeserving of more than an 8 6 or even a 3 & spend those extra points saved elsewhere in one or more attributes that they want to excel at.
Ok, let's try this way: how do you create a "high power" character with 48 points and the costs you wrote?
As soon as you try to put an 18 in a single stat (which would kind of be the definition for being high power), you barely have enough points to put in the other stats, even if you try to be even just below the average for humanoid npcs. If you put even just a 14 in another stat (so you have an 18 and a 14), then you have no points left and all your other scores are stuck to 3. How is this high power (or even playable)?
Even a MAD jack of all trades character is going to have some ability scores that they simply don't need to consider & are unlikely to ever use much. The 15/14/13/12/10/8 standard array is non minmaxed in anything because it's just maxed across the board in everything a particular PC will need & even the areas it fails to max are hardly low enough to call "min" for the basically allmax array that qualifies for four different 13stat gated multiclass options.
Maxed with an 8 is very hard to sell, IMO. Surely the standard array doesn't limit character creation in any way, but it's also not maxed by definition, as you don't have all 18s... BTW, with this system and the "high power" setting, you can't even make the standard array, so you'll have to revise all your costs or the points you give (drastically, I'd add)
The monsters don't need to be "nerfed" because the players now have more need & room to acquire magic items so zombies skeletons & kobolds can do that without needing to use much higher CR fiends & such. The default array & default pointbuy that powers it is so good that the room for equipment is squeezed out. Having lower starting attributes and/or a wider gap between one's good/great stats & poor/dump stats creates room to fill with equipment & takes far less math manipulation tha forcing the gm to manually add a few points to ac saves DC & tohit of every monster.
Ok, but then you're just pushing the problem from character creation to magic item boosting. Which is setting dependent, and doesn't feel like an achievement, but more of a DM hand down.
Also, if one wants a multiclass character (for which two 13s are needed), he needs to burn 30 of his 48 points (which is the "high power" tier), with only 18 points left for 4 stats (two 8s and 2 4s I guess?)
This system doesn't really allow to build multiclassed characters unless they're so weak in all other aspects to be barely functioning even as npcs...
Take this quote from page 501 of monstrous menagerie as an example of how much room there already is "You can raise or lower the monster’s Armor Class by one or two points without altering it in any other way. If you change its AC by 3 or more points, you should reduce or raise its hit points or damage per round by 5% per point of AC you varied from the base AC." The GM already has a lot of plates to keep spinning while running the game & every customized monster adds to that.
Yes, but this system is an incredible nerf and it's basically incompatible with the assumed pc stats.
You can't even make the standard array at all with this system, so the other design tweaks are not gonna be enough to balance it.
 

tetrasodium

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Ok, let's try this way: how do you create a "high power" character with 48 points and the costs you wrote?
As soon as you try to put an 18 in a single stat (which would kind of be the definition for being high power), you barely have enough points to put in the other stats, even if you try to be even just below the average for humanoid npcs. If you put even just a 14 in another stat (so you have an 18 and a 14), then you have no points left and all your other scores are stuck to 3. How is this high power (or even playable)?
The default point buy stops at 15, it should be no surprise that going above that results in severe tradeoffs. Characters get +1/+1 from their background, an 18 would turn into a 19 while a 17 jumps to an 18. Why would you expect to put in an 18 without making serious tradeoffs? The default math still pretty much assumes that magic items are optional compared to the past where they were required. Room for them to be required is created through the lower stats and narrowed areas a character can exhibit enough competence to consider playing the odds on a d20 alongside an expert who might be specialized in the thing being sone... Rolling a "I'll try too" with a +0 or -1 isn't that big of a risk, but when the penalty starts ticking up it incentivizes finding another way instead of "I'll try that too". Those other ways could be magic items followers downtime activities teamwork in a new direction or any number of other options.

Tajen another way, I know computers because IT & unix admin is my field, I have no idea how to fix a car when it's not working & would be stupid to grab some tools to tinker if my car breaks. I have mechanic friends who are the other way around. Under the default array every PC is both.
Maxed with an 8 is very hard to sell, IMO. Surely the standard array doesn't limit character creation in any way, but it's also not maxed by definition, as you don't have all 18s... BTW, with this system and the "high power" setting, you can't even make the standard array, so you'll have to revise all your costs (drastically, I'd add)
When a commoner is 10/10/10/10/10/10 that 8 is hardly a deficit alongside the rest of the 18/14/13/12/10/8.
Ok, but then you're just pushing the problem from character creation to magic item boosting. Which is setting dependent, and doesn't feel like an achievement, but more of a DM hand down.

Also, if one wants a multiclass character (for which two 13s are needed), he needs to burn 30 of his 48 points (which is the "high power" tier), with only 18 points left for 4 stats (two 8s and 2 4s I guess?)

This system doesn't really allow to build multiclassed characters unless they're so weak in all other aspects to be barely functioning even as npcs...

A multiclass character only needs one 13 if the classes use or allow the same stat. If the optional rule isn't used they don't even need that one.
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Yes, but this system is an incredible nerf and it's basically incompatible with the assumed pc stats.

You can't even make the standard array at all with this system, so the other design tweaks are not gonna be enough to balance it.
The costs allow a player to build a character who starts with an 18 & some extreme tradeoffs outside their one area of dominance, but the tradeoffs will be felt viscerally compared to a more well rounded but still focused character who starts like 15+1/13+1/10/6/3/3 who still has some weaknesses and is not that far behind the laser focused idiot savant who started with a 16+ in one stat. Those both can be compared to an even more well rounded character who starts with something like 13+1/13+1/10/8/6/3.

The various point allocations assume an average number of points per attribute, spending less in one or more frees up points to spend elsewhere. For example48/6=8, 45/6=7.5 42/6=7 39/6=6.5 36/6=6. the deeper or more frequent the cuts the wider or more elevated the bonuses are.
 

FitzTheRuke

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I have to agree with @lichmaster. Something does not make sense. With your current chart, it would cost 80 points to make the "Standard Array".

Are you adding the cost of straight 10's (48 points by your chart) to your "High Power 48" (making it 96), etc? I think you must be, but you don't mention it.
 

tetrasodium

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I have to agree with @lichmaster. Something does not make sense. With your current chart, it would cost 84 points to make the "Standard Array".

Are you adding the cost of straight 10's (60 points by your chart) to your "High Power 48" (making it 108), etc? I think you must be, but you don't mention it.
The standard array is far too generous
 


FitzTheRuke

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Let's put it another way: Using your chart, what are the abilities of some typical characters you'd expect to see?

(Because I don't think it's a "High Powered" 10/10/10/10/10/10 at its most jack-of-all or a "typical" 18/5/4/4/4/3 at its most master-of-one.) Please correct me if I'm wrong!
 

Yeah, the words you're saying do not match the math you're showing. This is clearly designed for extremely low stats, and calling even the highest point buy "extremely powerful" is very disingenuous.

Of course, even the justifications you give for lowering attribute values don't make sense, since now characters are even more desperate for that next magical upgrade, and sidegrades seem even less useful.
 

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