Alternative to turning undead

[Beholder Bob]

I'm working on a home brew replacement of the cleric class and am looking for feedback as to powers. Of note, not all holy men will turn undead, each instead chooses a method of channeling, gained at 1st 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th level. Does this ability seem a fair exchange for turn undead, too good, or too weak? Note, the class gets 2 channeling uses per day, with no bonus for high charisma, but gains an additional channeling usage at 4th, 9th, 14th, and 19th level.

Beneficence Channeling Method: Requires access to Healing domain

Beneficence I (SU): Grant an ally you are able to perceive within 30’ of you, the ability to re-roll a failed saving throw. This bonus lasts for 1 round. This is a free action can be used quickly enough that an ally targeted by an effect that can be used as a free action (counting as a quickened spell) and can be used out of turn. PCs are limited to 1 quickened spell per round. You may not target yourself with this ability.

Beneficence II (SU): Requires Beneficence I. When you use Beneficence, you may allow an ally to re-roll any failed roll.

Beneficence III (SU): Requires Beneficence II. You may sacrifice a spell as part of beneficence and aid a number of allies equal to the spell level + 1.

Mercy’s Gift (SU): Requires Beneficence III. Targeting a single ally, Merciful Gift lasts for 1 R/Caster level, allowing you to provide protection from wounds for that duration. When the protected ally is damaged, roll twice and apply the lower result.

Benevolent Grace (SU): Requires Beneficence I. Grant an ally within 30’ a +1 moral bonus to attack rolls and saves against fear, as well as d4 + 1/Godsman level temporary HP. This benefit lasts for 1 R/Godsman LV. Use of this ability requires a standard action.

Benevolent Grace II (SU): Requires Benevolent Grace. You may sacrifice a spell as part of Benevolent Grace and grant its effects to a number of allies equal to the spell level +1.

Benevolent Grace III (SU): Requires Benevolent Grace II. You may sacrifice a spell as part of Benevolent Grace and grant a bonus to saves and attack rolls equal to 1 + Spell Level. You may target multiple allies (per Benevolent Grace II) – but to increase the bonus received, you must sacrifice a spell for each creature.

Mantle of the Giver (SU): Requires Beneficence I. When you make a save, you can, prior to rolling a saving throw, choose to expend a spell for a bonus to the save equal to the spell’s level. This is a free action can be used quickly enough to be used as a free action (counting as a quickened spell) and can be used out of turn. PCs are limited to 1 quickened spell per round.

Well, what do ya think?

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[Beholder Bob]

Ah, a 'This ability is too good' vote! Cool!

Ok, why do you vote so? Any suggested changes or core reasons for your view? I'm looking to make things balanced, so any feedback would be great!

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[Beholder Bob]

Ok, another one! Note, this class replaces cleric & druid. The holy man gains a single domain at 1st. Since the voting was set up for the initial ability only - feedback to this ability should be posted, rather then voted one.

Animal Channeling Method: Requires access to Naturomancy (the animal/plant domain)

Animal Forms I (SU): Transform into an animal (of no more HD then you) the same size or 1 size smaller then your base size for up to 10 MIN/LV. Changing form is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You may only make a single transformation with each use, then return to your normal form at the end as a free action. You know 1 animal form per Godsman level, chosen from animals you’ve encountered. While transformed, you use the animals description in the MM, except you use your own INT, WIS, CHA, HP, skills, and feats. You gain all of the animals traits, abilities, and limitations (including the loss of speech except while in raven or parrot form). You may not cast spells while transformed, though you may speak with animals of the same or related species.

Animal Forms II (SU): Requires Animal Forms I. Transformation lasts ½ HR/LV & may be as small as 2 sizes smaller.

Animal Forms III (SU): Requires Animal Forms II. You may now take a form 1 size larger, and may change from 1 type of animal to another once during a usage (i.e. turn to crow, fly into castle, transform then into wolf)

Shape Changer (SU): Requires - Animal Forms III. You gain 5/silver DMG reduction while transformed.

Greater Form (SU): Requires - Animal Forms III. You may take a form 2 sizes larger then your base size.

Many Forms (SU): Requires - Animal Forms I. You learn 4 new animal forms.

Wondrous Form (SU): Requires - Animal Forms I. You may learn forms that you’ve never encountered.

Animal Casting (SU): Requires - Animal Forms II. Cast spells while transformed as a +1 level meta-magic effect – components are still requirements. (Wild casting as a feat is gone - too good as something you simply tack on w/a feat)

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[Bladesong]

Let me start with an apology because this probably is not the feedback you are looking for. So...sorry. That having been said, my group has played with a bunch of different options to alter/change the Turn Undead ability, and are still trying different ideas. In MHO your first class' changes seem awfully "bardish" to me. In any case they are not unique, other classes have only slightly different variations on most of the abilities you listed. As far as balace goes it depends on the situation: it makes him less useful against undead but more useful in every other type of encounter.

As for the second one I do not see them as being much of a change as far as the "flavor" of a campaign goes. Personally, I would probably keep the druid's animal forms as is and make some of the other abilities (such as the DR) Feats instead.

Good luck.

 

[Beholder Bob]

Let me start with an apology because this probably is not the feedback you are looking for. So...sorry.

Any feedback is good. If people only respond if they have 'good news', the feedback would be worthless. So no need to appologize!

In MHO your first class' changes seem awfully "bardish" to me. In any case they are not unique, other classes have only slightly different variations on most of the abilities you listed. As far as balace goes it depends on the situation: it makes him less useful against undead but more useful in every other type of encounter.

True - the ability to aid his fellows is a passive boost rather then offensive punch. allowing the re-roll of saves is (I thought) not a common ability, though specialized. Hmm, I'll think on this. Of note, with channeling reduced to 2/day w no bonus for cha, the usage of this ability is more dear.

Personally, I would probably keep the druid's animal forms as is and make some of the other abilities (such as the DR) Feats instead.

The animal forms abilities roughly follows the druid abilities, with the purchase of them limited to certain levels. The most important differences - the holyman may not take elemental form, is limited in the forms available, and can choose to follow a different channeling method to supliment animal forms. Other then ease of use, is there a reason you prefer the druid animal form track?

I'm taking away the ability to alter the use of channeling as a feat - the alternate applications of channeling are limited to the gaining of higher level in the holy man class. Partly - so the class has a reason to stick with the class (instead of prestige classes) - and to force a stronger flavor. For each domain, their are going to be at least 2 channeling tracks related to that domain - this to make the domains more important. Finally, you begin with only 1 domain, though sticking with the class will eventually net you 3 domains.

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[The_Universe]

I'll comment primarily on the first replacement - it's much, much too powerful to function as a replacement for turn undead.

Although the abilities described therein do not seem to be more powerful on the face of things, you really need to consider how often they'd be useable. Turn Undead, naturally, is only useful when the party is facing undead. Although a cleric or paladin with this ability does present the possibility that the encounter can be largely bypassed, it still only come up occaisonally unless you're in an "all-undead" campaign.

Benificence and its accompanying abilities, on the other hand, are constantly available and useful in *every situation* in which the PCs may find themselves. There's really not a single situation where the cleric-replacement *couldn't* use one or all of these abilities.

At the very least, these should require the expenditure of a feat (or more than one feat) in order for your cleric to access them. Even then, I have my doubts that I'd allow them in my game.

 

[Beholder Bob]

It's much, much too powerful to function as a replacement for turn undead.

Although the abilities described therein do not seem to be more powerful on the face of things, you really need to consider how often they'd be useable...There's really not a single situation where the cleric-replacement *couldn't* use one or all of these abilities...should require the expenditure of a feat...[/QUOTE]

Hmm.Resurgence

Ok - I see your point. My view was that turn undead is an all or nothing ability - potent/pointless. The feats that grant other uses for turn undead were created to fix that problem, which I like. Some of these alternatives are useful in most any game - though at the cost of a feat (then again, they retain the ability to turn undead). Given that, you still feal it is too powerful? It would seem so from your post. I'll review it and try to evaluate its effects on a game.

Of note: the ability is equal to the 1st level spell Resurgence (Complete Divine), with Beneficence III being equal to the 3rd lv spell Mass Resurgence (except you sacrifice a spell when using Beneficence III, the spell level +1 = # of allies targeted).

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[Bladesong]

Personally, I would probably keep the druid's animal forms as is and make some of the other abilities (such as the DR) Feats instead.

The animal forms abilities roughly follows the druid abilities, with the purchase of them limited to certain levels. The most important differences - the holyman may not take elemental form, is limited in the forms available, and can choose to follow a different channeling method to supliment animal forms. Other then ease of use, is there a reason you prefer the druid animal form track?

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I would always recommend that you try them, you can always go back I suppose. I understand your thoughts on the elemental forms. I prefered it the way is was when a spell was required to take those forms. You probably do not, however, have to tweak the rules so much to get your desired results. Perhaps you could take away elemental forms and change them to "were-beast like" hybrid forms or maybe even plant forms (treant perhaps), or if you would like to change it somewhat, but keep it reasonable perhaps the high level options could be to change another companion you touch into the same form along side of you so that you can run/fly/swim away or even 1 additional companion for each 3 levels (or 2 or 5) you possess. I do not think that would be too unreasonable, I would just restrict the forms that the druid could change them to would be as if they were low level druids (i.e. the druid may be able to change into an elephant, but he can only shift the others into wolves). I would also make it so they were not in control of the changes; the druid would have to concentrate to change them back, they cannot do it themselves. I guess what I am saying is just find alternatives for the ones that you do not care for instead of all of them.

As far as the alternate cleric goes I do not have as many suggestions. We still toy with his Turning ability and in the next campaign there are no clerics at all so it will not matter. We are all tired of god driven goals and adventures (in gaming anyway).

Have fun.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I think it's just right at level 1, but too strong even by level 5. Turning gets relatively weaker, in my experience, as levels increase, but this gets significantly better.

Maybe I'd allow just the basic Benificence to replace turning, replacing the others (1 or 2 at a time) with feats.

 

[Beholder Bob]

I think it's just right at level 1, but too strong even by level 5. Turning gets relatively weaker, in my experience, as levels increase, but this gets significantly better.

Maybe I'd allow just the basic Benificence to replace turning, replacing the others (1 or 2 at a time) with feats.

True - what I'm doing is a bit of a mix, I'm matching turn undead to druid animal shape in power (turn undead will now get better, rather then losing purpose as levels increase). This is at a cost, though - d6 hd, good will save only and wizard base attack. In exchange, the class is gaining an improved use for channeling. The class retains a weak offense spell selection (per cleric), heavy in utility spells. The channeling is being changed to a major feature of the class - you can turn into an animal at 1st level.

I dislike the mechanic for turn undead - multiple uses of an ability that negates a % of encounters, but becomes obsolete as levels are gained. A high level cleric doesn't bother turning undead unless fighting minions. I feel a power should not become obsolete - but should start of weaker, then scale as levels are gained. My re-write of turn undead is weaker then the core version, but slowly curves upward in power.

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