Alternative to turning undead

[Beholder Bob]

If you feel the Beneficence is about on par with turn undead at base ability - then perhaps I need to add a prior step...

Any suggestions? Perhaps require the expenditure of a spell to allow a re-roll?

BB

 

[Sadrik]

I have a very similar thing in my game I separate clerics and priests. I have also made turn undead a divine feat. I like what you are doing here but it might be simpler to make these abilities divine feats and give them a domain prerequisite. You could give all of the divine feats a domain prerequisite.

The cleric class changes are: spell casting equal to the bard (with 7th level spells at 19th and 20th and the +1 domain spell) and give them bonus divine feats (4, 8, 12, 16, and 20) and more ability to channel (6 + cha).

The priest class is: three domains, a d6 HD, the clerics old spell progression (up to 9th level spells), wizard BAB, good will save only, 4 skill points per level, the clerics old channel abilities (3 + cha), a bonus divine, meta-magic or item creation feats (1, 5, 10, 15, and 20) and they can choose the druid spell list if they want instead of the cleric one.

I did a similar thing with the druid as the cleric, except they get bonus wild feats.

 

[Beholder Bob]

I have a very similar thing in my game I separate clerics and priests. I have also made turn undead a divine feat. I like what you are doing here but it might be simpler to make these abilities divine feats and give them a domain prerequisite. You could give all of the divine feats a domain prerequisite.

I'm taking divine feats away as an option as I find the channeling mechanic very powerful. Instead, for this class, channeling options are gained at discrete levels, with chains of powers available to gain stronger abilities - but not available unless you stick with the class instead of MC or prestige. These abilities are tied to the choices of spheres/domains you take. If I made these feats instead of abilities, it opens up the option of picking these up without staying dedicated to the class - feats are available every 3 levels. I'm aiming for these powers to be roughly equal to turn undead & shape change (ala druid) - using 5th level as the 'center point', weaker then turn undead at 1st. I'm also dropping the uses per day to 2, gaining 4 extra uses over 20 class levels, and nerfing the feat for additional channeling to +2, not +4 uses extra a day.

BB

 

[TheGM]

I voted too powerful, mostly because of the reroll issue. I'm not a fan of rerolls, they:
- Quickly become addictive (what do I have to do to get rerolls?)
- Slow gameplay
- Are a bit of a stretch

I prefer flat bonuses. They're quicker, easier for the GM to consider if they want to make a challenge, and are "just a tool" that everyone has rather than something you can only get by "doing X" (in this case being this class).

 

[Beholder Bob]

Uh-oh, it looks like the consensus is it is over powered. Damn.

Ok - a step prior to gaining the 1st Beneficence ability.....

Perhaps a change in general.....

1st: Instead of allowing a re-roll, it grants +2 save - must use prior to rolling save!
2nd: only effects saves, but now +4 save.
3rd: stays the same (sac spell to target extra folks)

That should weaken it!

Now, if the above is too good, then the alternate chain Benevolent, and the powers Mercy & Mantle are probably over the top too...

Benevolent
1st: take away dmg and save bonus
2nd: stays the same (sac spell to target extra folks)
3rd: sacrifice a spell to grants +1/2 spell level divine AC bonus

Mercy’s Gift: Acts as shield other - the user takes 1/2 the damage the target takes. - - - I'd change it to the name to Martyrs Sacrifice

Mantle of the Giver: I think this one isn't too powerful.....

BB

 

[TheGM]

This looks better to me, FWIW. I like the name change to include Martyr too, it fits better.

 

[Sadrik]

I'm taking divine feats away as an option as I find the channeling mechanic very powerful. Instead, for this class, channeling options are gained at discrete levels, with chains of powers available to gain stronger abilities - but not available unless you stick with the class instead of MC or prestige.

These abilities are tied to the choices of spheres/domains you take. If I made these feats instead of abilities, it opens up the option of picking these up without staying dedicated to the class - feats are available every 3 levels.

I'm aiming for these powers to be roughly equal to turn undead & shape change (ala druid) - using 5th level as the 'center point', weaker then turn undead at 1st.

I'm also dropping the uses per day to 2, gaining 4 extra uses over 20 class levels, and nerfing the feat for additional channeling to +2, not +4 uses extra a day.

By all means do this if you want to put the work into it. Let me point out though that feats have prerequisites and you can tweak them so that they are not all available at 1st level and you can essentially make them all available at, "discrete levels, with chains of powers available to gain stronger abilities ."

You can also give the divine feats the prerequisites of X domain. For insance, I think that your ability to grant bonuses to saves should probably be luck domain and not healing. But see if you made them feats you could say this divine feat has the prereq. of: healing, luck or good and then do that for each one.

I agree with dropping the uses per day. I have a cleric in my game right now who can turn undead 13 times a day I think that is too much. However, I think you have neutered the ability too much. How about this: you use your charisma mod in times per day at first and then gain a bonus use every- fifth level, for you. (I would probably increase that personally.) I still like: the number of times per day you can use channeling being tied to a stat. It makes charisma not a dump stat for clerics and priests or your " holy man" (btw only men can become?).

The reason I am pushing for you to consider making these divine feats is because it gives characters more options. I like options. I think players like options too, being pidgeon holed into something when it could be more open is no fun.

 

[Beholder Bob]

...I agree with dropping the uses per day. I have a cleric in my game right now who can turn undead 13 times a day I think that is too much. However, I think you have neutered the ability too much. How about this: you use your charisma mod in times per day at first and then gain a bonus use every- fifth level, for you. (I would probably increase that personally.) I still like: the number of times per day you can use channeling being tied to a stat. It makes charisma not a dump stat for clerics and priests or your " holy man" (btw only men can become?).

The reason I am pushing for you to consider making these divine feats is because it gives characters more options. I like options. I think players like options too, being pidgeon holed into something when it could be more open is no fun.

..neutered..too much.... In power or uses?

..only men..Nope, open to either sex. Godsman is a generic term, various cultures use different terms (shaman, priest, etc)

..pushing for feats..I want channeling methods totally free from feats. There are plenty of feats out there, the loss of channeling feats shouldn't cramp anyones style too much - plus the ability to pick n' choose your channeling methods should make up for any options lost.

Of note - I'm trying to divorce charisma from turning to some degree. A character with low cha has a useless ability, while a high ability is godlike (high cha is bonus uses & bonus rolls, a 16 cha priest getting double the turn uses with a +3 vs a 10 cha!). I am going to have cha influence the effect of channeling, but not to such an extreme (when a stat is used to calculate a DC, it will be cha).

BB

 

[Sadrik]

I just thought of two things that could be done with it:

1. Remove spontaneous casting of cure and infict spells and make those abilities for the healing and destruction domains. Granting you the ability to convert higher level spells when you get higher level.

All clerics shouldnt be tied to posative and negative energy like they are.

For instance fire domain could let you blast fire instead of inflict spells.

2. Instead of having a number of times per day you can channel. You can sack spells from memory to power the powers you use. The more powerful the spell you sack the more effective you channel your power. It doesnt give you an endless resevior but it deffinatley lets you do it a lot more but at a very steep cost- losing spells.

Hmm, I like this I might just use this.

 

[CRGreathouse]

True - what I'm doing is a bit of a mix, I'm matching turn undead to druid animal shape in power (turn undead will now get better, rather then losing purpose as levels increase). This is at a cost, though - d6 hd, good will save only and wizard base attack. In exchange, the class is gaining an improved use for channeling. The class retains a weak offense spell selection (per cleric), heavy in utility spells. The channeling is being changed to a major feature of the class - you can turn into an animal at 1st level.

Ah, I'm sorry -- I missed that. Yes, with these changes to the class it seems fine.