Alternative to WoTC D&D

[Greg K]

It's not rational because it's not an informed decision. Never actually having played a game, you decide that you will never, ever play it. The way it's written in your post, it comes off as being an emotional decision, which is fine. But it's also not rational.
.

Why should one have to play the game? I already know that 4e has several elements that I do not like
- Dragonborn, Eladrin, Tieflings as core PHB races
- Per Encounter class abilities
- ToB abilities brought over into core
- The new Paladin smites
- The Paladin Divine Challenge
- Marking in general
- The Warlock abilities as described by WOTC
- The Warlord based on what we have be told to date and my dislike for TOB
- Star Wars Sage like skill system
- unified attack bonus
- The ability to do hp damage on a miss
- Negative Hit Points at -10 or 1/4 max hp
- The new Death and Dying rules
- Bleeding ability
- a natural 20 always being a critical hit
- Tiers having different rules

All of the above outweigh the few things that the designers have, imo, done right with 4e and are not superior (for my gaming tastes) to things that I can do with UA and existing third party material. At best, I can only hope that 4e has some things worth stealing.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Why should one have to play the game? I already know that 4e has several elements that I do not like
- Dragonborn, Eladrin, Tieflings as core PHB races
- Per Encounter class abilities
- ToB abilities brought over into core
- The new Paladin smites
- The Paladin Divine Challenge
- Marking in general
- The Warlock abilities as described by WOTC
- The Warlord based on what we have be told to date and my dislike for TOB
- Star Wars Sage like skill system
- unified attack bonus
- The ability to do hp damage on a miss
- Negative Hit Points at -10 or 1/4 max hp
- The new Death and Dying rules
- Bleeding ability
- a natural 20 always being a critical hit
- Tiers having different rules

Thanks Greg, for pointing out some of the reasons why I'm switching.

Though I do agree with you on not liking dragonborn, tieflings, and eladrin as core races. The funny thing is - it's easy as all heck to switch the flavor and keep the mechanics. So in our world we've got dragonborn = half-trolls, eladrin = high elves, and tieflings = well, tieflings. But still - pretty easy to do.

Heck, the list you print of things you don't like are all very fixable. Now trying to fix some of 3E's problems (dependence on magic items, wacky high level spell funspongers, heartaches for DMs trying to prep adventures, 8,764 lbs. of imbalanced splat, etc.) is a whole different ballgame.

To each his own.

Wis

 

[Piratecat]

It is not anyone's job in this thread to proselytize 4e. The OP asked for alternatives to D&D. The next poster to discuss 4e is getting their post erased, along with a possible suspension. I'm pretty annoyed about both pro- and anti-4e people hijacking this thread, and I expect it to stay focused from this point forward.

If you just responded to another post about 4e and are reading this now, I strongly suggest you go back and edit your post.

 

[Piratecat]

Hey, on an unrelated note, could the person who shot me an email about this thread please email me again with their current email addy? I replied, but the email in the EN World profile is old and it bounced.

Thanks!

 

[dragonlordofpoondari]

A Big Freakin' List for you

In the interest of getting this baby back on rails, here is a big list! It's not comprehensive, but I believe they all D20. I've starred some that I've heard good things about or that I've seen firsthand and liked.

*Call of Cthulhu D20
*Delta Green
*D20 Modern (Apocalypse, Cyberspace, Future, Past, Urban Arcana, Dark*Matter, Steampunk)
*Grim Tales
*Arcana Unearthed
*Ptolus
*Iron Heroes
*Iron Kingdoms
Warcraft D20 RPG
*Kingdoms of Kalamar
*Scarred Lands
*Dragonlance
Dragonstar
Spycraft
Stargate SG-1
Farscape Roleplaying
*Star Wars Saga Edition
*BESM D20
Slayers D20
Northern Crown
*Conan D20
*Thieves' World
*Black Company
*SpirosBlaack
*Skull & Bones
*Rokugan
Nyambe
Hamunaptra
*Eternal Rome
Trojan War
*Sidewinder: Recoiled
OGL Wild West
Testament
Mindshadows
Medieval Player's Manual
Red Star
*Midnight
*Blackmoor
*Mutants and Masterminds
*Traveller T20
Blue Rose
Ancient Kindgoms: Mesopotamia

 

[Silver Moon]

My gaming group has played v3.5 since it came out (and 3.0 before that). We all have hundreds of dollars worth of books...... That they do not think v3.5 needs to be replaced anytime soon - it ain't broken......Financially; we all spent a lot of cash over the past few years building up....libraries and the like.

My gaming group began in 1982 with AD&D 1st Editon. In 1989 we had the same discussion when 2nd Editon came out, opting to stick with our 1st Edition game for the same reasons you cite above. My wife and I gamed at Conventions so picked up and used the 2nd Edition books there, but with the exception of adoping the 2E Bard class, we kept our game to the 1E RULES.

We had the discussion again in 2000 and 2001 when several other gaming groups we knew switched to 3E, but we decided to stay with 1E - it had worked for us until now, no desire to switch.

That said, I am the primary DM and use material from all versions in my games. I have found that after doing this for more than a quarter-century it takes minimal effort for me to convert 3E and 3.5E material over for use with our group. Tonight I'll be using a module from the Dungeon Magazine Worms Adventure Path as the primary source for our 1E game.

So my advice to you Fighter1 is to stick with the version your group is comfortable with, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face by shunning all new material, just adapt it as necessary to fit your needs.

 

[Greg K]

In the interest of getting this baby back on rails, here is a big list! It's not comprehensive, but I believe they all D20. I've starred some that I've heard good things about or that I've seen firsthand and liked.

To the list I'd add:
Darwin's World (RPGObjects): Post apocalypse
Legends of Excalibur (RPGObjects)
Legend of the Samurai (RPGObjects)
Modern 20 (RPGObjects): a new d20 derived system
Swashbuckling Adventures (AEG): d20 version of 7th Sea

*D20 Modern (Apocalypse, Cyberspace, Future, Past, Urban Arcana, Dark*Matter, Steampunk)

To the list of d20 Modern genre/setting, I would add the following third party offerings:
Blood and Blades (RPGObjects): Running a d20M slasher horror game
Blood and Brains (RPGObjects): Running a d20M zombie horror game
Blood and Spooks (RPGObjects): Running a d20M ghost hunter horror game
Blood and Fists (RPGObjects): supplement for expanding d20M martial arts and running d20 Martial arts campaigns.
Blood and Guts (RPGObjects): Supplements for running d20M military games
Blood and Relics (RPGObjects): d20M Occult Conspiracy
Blood and Secrets (RPGObjects): d20M supplement for running super spies
Blood and Space (RPGObjects): supplements for running d20 Future space games
Blood and Time (RPGObjects): supplement for d20M Time Travel
Modern High (RPGObjects): tailoring d20 modern to High School heroes
Sidewinder: Recoiled (Green Ronin/Dog House): d20 Modern Wild West
Terminal Identiy: Uplink (Adamant) : for d20M Cyberpunk
Thrilling Tales (Adamant): for d20M Pulp Adventure

 

[Corsair]

Babylon 5 d20 (Mongoose)

 

[Shadeydm]

Removed. I was very clear about no more 4e discussion in this thread. That includes quoting previous comments, please. ~ PCat

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In the Universe of non-WotC D20 FRPGs, I like (in no particular order):

Iron Heroes
AU/AE
Iron Kingdoms
Midnight 2Ed
Thieves' World
Nyambe/Northern Crown
Swashbuckling Adventures
Rokugan

I've played True 20, and found it to be respectable & eminently playable, but it hasn't "grabbed me" so far.

While I haven't seen it at all, Paizo's track record indicates to me that Pathfinder should be worth at least checking out for an extended test drive.

Mutants & Masterminds, while technically a supers RPG, is a GREAT supers RPG (IMHO, second only to HERO). As such, it is designed to simulate a wide variety of superheroic subgenres and PC types, which means it has to be able to support magic. THUS, it also is pretty cool for running a game in almost any RPG genre, including fantasy. One thing is sure, if you can think it, M&M can probably model it.

For more modern stuff (besides M&M obviously), I'd reccomend:

D20 Modern/Urban Arcana/Dark*Matter
Spycraft 2.0
Dragonstar
Etherscope

And the sourcebooks:

Second World (SWS)
Psychic's Handbook; Modern Magic; Ultramodern Firearms D20 (Green Ronin)
Arsenal; Factory (Perpetrated Press)

You can also have fun with:

Star Wars D20
Prime Directive D20
Call of Cthulhu D20
Deadlands D20