Alternatives to map-and-key

I think there is an excluded middle here between 'the player isn't invested in any particular outcome for his character' and 'the player will do anything to win the roll, no matter how degenerate or hollow'. When I play D&D sure I try to use my best abilities but I also try to resolve things how they make sense in the fiction, having my Barbarian sweet talk his way out of things even when Intimidate is my higher score, or fighting would be my better option, or the Cleric is better at Diplomacy and I could run and get him instead.

I don't remember the rules for SCs too clearly (and they changed anyway) but weren't there different DCs for different approaches? So it isn't necessarily just colour or just about spamming your best skill. We also used to run them that you couldn't just spam the same thing each time, each action had to be a different skill or at least the same skill used in a very different way. I don't know if that's RAW or not.
At a big standard level the DC for each check is the same, but some skills are considered primary, your first use is at the medium DC. Further uses are hard. Secondary skills may be used, with more restrictions. The GM can specify other additional things if they want, and each side has the opportunity to deploy advantages and hard DCs. Rules Compendium has the most polished version.

TBH I don't designate skills. Leave it open to whatever the players think to try. Just make sure the situation changes substantively after every check.
 

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I agree with this. Skill challenges and similar mechanics are just a way of applying slightly more structure to regular play in order to make a particular long-form sequence more transparent and gameable. Without such a structure, these sequences are ultimatelly resolved by the GM, who after a certain (arbitrary) number of player actions just decides 'OK the NPCs are convinced now' or 'No, you've tried but you can't figure out how to fix the ship with the parts you have'. There's nothing wrong with that necessarily, but the structure of a SC provides an alternative, more gameable, approach.
Exactly!
I have definitely seen criticisms of skill challenges before that boil down to 'the game rules don't stop me from ruining the game, so I will'. And I've seen the same criticism applied to things like player narration and invention of world details. Ultimately all games rely on a certain amount of good faith from all parties.
Right. Now, a valid criticism of a technique might be that it incites this kind of thing, but I don't think that is the case here myself.
Not sure what games you have experience with but it's along the lines of FATE or HeroQuest. Characters have player-created narrative descriptors as abilities (Follow the Jedi Code, Spork-Bending Telekinesis, Never Back Down) and apply them (with modifiers for appropriateness) to freeform conflicts with negotiated stakes.

The set pieces in my game are entirely freeform, the two sides take turns deciding 'escalate or resolve' until one side chooses resolve. There are guidelines for what I call storyboarded set pieces where the phases of a particular conflict might actually be set in advance - for example, the face-off/quick draw/shots fired sequence of a wild west gunfight, or the prosecution case/defence case/final speeches sequence of a criminal trial. But these are less common.
Yeah, your example crossed with my post, so that did clarify things a bunch. It reminds me of DitV conflict, TBH. The mechanics are different, but conceptually it has the same 'keep raising until the lid blows off' thing going, though DitV does let you back off from the edge, at a price. My feeling is this sort of device is great for things like interpersonal conflict. It's telling that your example is framed in those terms.
 

"what are some uncommon/lesser known ways of doing x"

Do you mean like describing them literally as “alternatives”? Like in the title of the thread.

Good grief.

What examples were you thinking of? Because this isn't my experience.

Imagined ones.

It’s amazing how easy it seems for many to simply deny the input of those with experience in favor of their own … imagined concerns.

And ultimately it doesn't matter that much what they do. The goal is to get on top, and six successes will get them there. So they might roll animal handling to distract to calm the pterodactyls, stealth to move past them, crafting to add nails to their shoes so that climbing is easier, athletics to climb, medicine to drug pterodactyl fodder with sleeping drugs or whatever. But it is really just colour. None of these tactics is better or worse, except in the boring way that you should invent things that use your best skills and spam them repeatedly if at all possible.

What you’re describing doesn’t really sound different than how D&D 5e works, or any other trad game.

Except that the GM would present each of those skill checks individually. In the case of a skill challenge, it’s just more formalized… and the players have input.

And players don't always need to play optimally, but I also feel that generally the rules should be designed so that it still produces interesting gameplay if they do. And I think the skill challenges being so transparent about the successes and failures needed makes it very apparent what is optimal in a way more complicated and nuanced situation perhaps wouldn't.

And here you say it. It’s the transparency that you have an issue with.

What suggestions for alternatives to map & key style gaming do you have?
 

Indeed. The question is revealing in that one would only ask it if one is unable to conceive of play other than railroading.
Just for the sake of clarity: am I right that you've got in mind that the whole "shorter path" idea only makes sense if the GM is making relatively unconstrained decisions about the consequences, in/for the fiction, of the PC succeeding at this action or that action; and so decides that this action will achieve <this much> progress towards the "finish line", whereas that action will achieve <this greater amount of> progress towards the "finish line".
 

But that's what skill challenge rules say, They have set of skills you can use and then set of secondary skills that might face higher DC. It even says:

"Characters must make a
check on their turn using one of the identified primary
skills (usually with a moderate DC) or they must use
a different skill, if they can come up with a way to
use it to contribute to the challenge (with a hard DC).
A secondary skill can be used only once by a single
character in any given skill challenge."


And:

"When a player’s turn comes up in a skill challenge,
let that player’s character use any skill the player
wants. As long as the player or you can come up with
a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge,
go for it."


So by the rules as written just spamming you best skill, if it was one of the primary skills of the challenge is how it works, and the GM is not supposed to invent reasons why it cannot be done. So yeah, it is the fault of the rules.
Seriously? Because this is not a fair, or accurate, description of SCs in total. The rules ALSO state that skill use has to make sense in the fiction, the player must justify their use of a skill in a specific situation. This is not some dice rolling game. It is an RPG, remember!? You had to read the entire section (it is only a couple pages) to get those quotes. Don't make me conclude that this is not an argument in good faith, eh?
Because if the number of rolls (and the universal DC too) is fixed from the get go, then it really doesn't matter what you do. There are no better or worse choices, apart choosing the skills which you have biggest numbers in. It does not require thinking about the situation, engaging with it.
Again, you need to argue in good faith. It is a STORY in which, at certain points, the players are going to need to make decisions and roll dice to see if they successfully navigate towards or away from their goals. This requires them to tell the GM what they are doing, and they MAY suggest a skill or ability to check against. Otherwise the GM may choose one. As of the first errata the GM also chooses whom to require next to make a skill check, though presumably the players have some input on this as well, given that they are describing their actions.
I recently ran a prison escape in my 5e game. I guess it could have been a skill challenge. It wasn't. There was predetermined obstacles. Door, locking mechanism out of reach, a guards with predetermined locations, the location of the key etc. And different actions had different DCs depending on the actual diegetic difficulty of that specific thing in the fiction. What specific actions they took mattered, what items they had managed to smuggle in mattered. And they actually ended up trying two differEnt approaches, as the first one failed, but not badly enough that the guards noticed. And the first attempt had way less "steps" than their second, way more complicated and risky attempt that nevertheless succeeded did.

First attempt:
1) The bard uses mage hand to pick the out of reach locking mechanism with the lockpicks the rogue had smuggled in. (fail)
Next steps would have probably been
2) Rush the guard and kill/knock him unconscious.
3+) Get out of the building

Second attempt:
1) The rogue taunts the guard to get him come close.
2) The rogue kills the guard with one strike by a poison dart she had smuggled in (super risky, but amazingly succeeded)
3) The bard and the barbarian bend the bars of the door as now there is no guard looking (super hard, but they manage to bend them a little.)
4) The rogue, the smallest and nimblest member of the party tries to squeeze through the slightly bent bars. (success)
5) As the guard has no keys, the rogue picks the locking mechanism. (success)
6+) Get out of the building.
And As a skill challenge, how would this be wildly different? I would note that the players would know (as in, hey I'm going to run this as a CL5 SC) that they need 12 successes. Now, you have a couple choices here as GM. You could run this as a single SC, or even a couple of smaller ones, but assuming it is one, then you'd consider the failure count, this is probably something you can interpret a couple ways, but maybe a clean way is to think of it as both having done something that will be noticed eventually, and some period of time having elapsed in which there is leeway to still get away.

And the successes are just that, picking locks, moving to specific places, etc. Failing to overcome a guard for instance could be handled in a 'fail forward' kind of way with "Well, it took 5 minutes to successfully get the jump on the guard, he was very watchful" So you might proceed but with less time remaining. Or the players go out a different exit that is less advantageous, etc. No situation is without any leeway to move it along. This structure is actually HELPING you because it is avoiding hopeless no-win situations, which are no fun to play.
That's not what the rules say. They just need to roll the required number of successes on the skills determined for the skill challenge. Then you somehow describe how this overcomes the obstacles.
No, they don't!
"A skill challenge represents a series of tests that adventurers must face[...]—all of these situations
present opportunities for skill challenges, because they take time and a variety of
skills to overcome
." -Rules Compendium P 157

"A skill challenge should not replace the roleplaying, the puzzling, and
the ingenuity that players put into handling those situations. Instead, it allows the
Dungeon Master to define the adventurers’ efforts within the rules structure so
that the players understand their options and the DM can more easily adjudicate
the outcome." -Ibid

"The DM might tell the players which skills to use, let
them improvise which ones they use, or both." -Ibid

Page 158 -Components of a Skill Challenge- then goes into the elements making it up, which include
1. A Goal
2. Level and DCs - The GM sets a level, which determines the DCs. If a Challenge was extremely difficult, the GM can simply set the level of the challenge higher, relative to the PC's level. Here we get another bit of information:
"Most skill checks in a typical challenge are against the moderate DC of the
challenge’s level (see the Difficulty Class by Level table, page 126). However,
after a character has used a particular skill to achieve a success against the
moderate DC, later uses of that skill in the challenge by the same character
should be against the hard DC." -Rules Compendium P158-159

3. Complexity - every challenge has a complexity, from CL1 to CL5. CL2+ include an increasing number of hard DCs (4 at CL5). PCs also get 'advantages', starting at CL3, which just means they have the ability to get a mechanical bonus of some sort, like A success at a hard DC might also count as a moderate success, giving 2 successes, etc. The GM is in charge of how these are allowed, the players need to specify, in fictional terms, how they try to achieve them. So, for instance a Wizard might spend 50gp casting a ritual. This could count as a success and an additional success, with the player describing how he uses the ritual, and why it is advantageous, and the GM giving out the advantage where merited, and describing the outcome.

4. Primary and Secondary Skills - Normally an SC will have Party Size + 2 skills, of which 2 or 3 will be secondary (so typically 4 primary and 3 secondary for a party of 5). Primary skills MAY be limited total number of uses allowed, no precise number is given, but 2 + CL is suggested. Secondary skills can contribute AT MOST one success to a challenge, and may simply enable another skill, give a bonus to a primary check, etc.

5. Consequences - success or failure will have narrative consequences, and may have mechanical ones as well. The rules don't really dictate what these are, they relate to the story.

There are a number of examples, the one in the RC is notable in that each interaction which produces a check leads to a new circumstance or need, which then requires a DIFFERENT check. There's no spamming some one skill, this is simply a Trojan Horse of an argument against SCs. STOP USING IT!
Perhaps you run skill challenges better than what the rules as written suggest. In fact, I am pretty sure that anyone who has had significant success with them is doing so. But this is not due the published rules, it is due you inventing your own rules that have some slight structural similarity to 4e skill challenges.
I f you were to read DMG1, 2, and the RC you will find that you are reducing things to a bit of a drastic level.

PRIMARILY the overall situation in an SC is not static. And what skills can be deployed at a given moment depends on fiction, not some rote formula. It might indeed seem best to a player if he can simply roll Athletics 12 times, but how is he going to explain that to the GM? What is the fiction? As soon as he makes the first such check, the fictional position of the PCs is going to change, they swam across the moat, and now they need to sneak through the postern, how is another Athletics check going to do that? It just doesn't fly.

So, I think the rules that 4e presents ARE imperfect in some ways. I don't personally believe in the idea of any set Skills, such as the RC rules state. The fiction will dictate what skills might be brought into play at each stage, and they are almost sure to be different each time.

I think there's also a good bit of 'art' involved in really good SCs. If you find that yours don't seem very dynamic, maybe you are focusing too much on one small piece of action. Widen the scope. Instead of "how do we cross the river" make the challenge about the overall expedition to cross The Great Neck, gathering supplies, negotiating with natives, finding a guide, keeping the porters happy. There's plenty of variety of stuff that might be required. As long as you can describe the GOAL, the DIFFICULTY, COMPLEXITY, and CONSEQUENCES, you will be able to make it work quite well!
 

Just for the sake of clarity: am I right that you've got in mind that the whole "shorter path" idea only makes sense if the GM is making relatively unconstrained decisions about the consequences, in/for the fiction, of the PC succeeding at this action or that action; and so decides that this action will achieve <this much> progress towards the "finish line", whereas that action will achieve <this greater amount of> progress towards the "finish line".
Where is this finish line? The truth is less sanguine! In a vacuum there's no 'path' with any specific 'length'. The GM can simply ask for check after check, regardless of outcomes, and then declare some outcome. I think the personally the point of Maps and Keys, Skill Challenges, Clocks, and even Agendas ala IaWA, is to put a yardstick out there. This of course becomes your 'constrained' vs 'relatively unconstrained' situation.
 

My own game Other Worlds has a similar 'sequence of conflicts' mechanism called Set Pieces which IMHO is much more effective. It's conflict resolution so a bit different but fundamentally the two sides take it in turns making rolls that either escalate or resolve the situation.
I don't have a detailed example but I can share the very brief one from the book.

<snip>

the nature of the final resolution is very dependent on the steps that lead up to it - you can't just spam diplomacy or firepower or whatever if your opponent has taken steps to neuter those abilities during the conflict.
Based on my reading of your example, one significant difference I noticed from a skill challenge is that a player (or the GM?) can attempt to resolve at any point, whereas in a skill challenge the players can't attempt to resolve until they are one success short. So the pacing/dynamics are different.

In a skill challenge, it is possible for an earlier action to affect the resolution of a subsequent action (typically with a +2 bonus, sometimes by reducing the difficulty of an action) but this doesn't normally cumulate. But the role of earlier actions in shaping the fiction for subsequent actions is (in my experience) fairly important - whether that is about opening up new skills (by changing the situation so that they become applicable), or about establishing or changing the stakes.

If the player invents something clever that should resolve the situation then and there, it cannot be done as we have not rolled our predetermined amount of checks.
As I posted upthread, I don't know where this "should" is coming from. It seems to assume some way of presenting and resolving a situation that is not a skill challenge! But if one is using a skill challenge, then how can it be that some action "should" bring things to a resolution here-and-now?

But the player knows that it is a skill challenge, and if athletics is their best skill they will probably want to roll it six times. (Boring, but optimal.)

And ultimately it doesn't matter that much what they do. The goal is to get on top, and six successes will get them there. So they might roll animal handling to distract to calm the pterodactyls, stealth to move past them, crafting to add nails to their shoes so that climbing is easier, athletics to climb, medicine to drug pterodactyl fodder with sleeping drugs or whatever. But it is really just colour. None of these tactics is better or worse, except in the boring way that you should invent things that use your best skills and spam them repeatedly if at all possible.

<snip>

The problem for me is that the fiction is just colour, an afterthought.
So by the rules as written just spamming you best skill, if it was one of the primary skills of the challenge is how it works, and the GM is not supposed to invent reasons why it cannot be done. So yeah, it is the fault of the rules.
The "gameplay" becomes about inventing reason to let you roll your best skills, which to be frank, I don't think is the most interesting way to generate compelling fiction either.
I don't think I agree. The players are attempting to get their characters through the challenge successfully. They are simply operating within the confines of a set of game rules! Those rules let them propose solutions to obstacles presented by the GM which are germane to the challenge at hand (extraneous stuff could happen, though this is atypical play IME, it would simply not bear on the challenge). Of course players often advocate for solutions that are mechanically more reliable for them. That is actually what the mechanics of 4e are for, is to say "yeah, you are really good at Athletics, this is the type of solution you choose to problems, when possible." There ARE other considerations though! Role Play is a thing!
The situation is simply all fiction. It is just up to the GM to frame the situations as checks, or not in some cases.

<snip>

There's not some purely pre-determined fiction that has to be navigated and doled out in a specific way. The fiction is what it is. The characters are not 'in a challenge', they're just moving through their environment solving problems. At certain intervals they may achieve sub-goals. These correspond to success in the current SC at the game level. Setbacks correspond to failed SCs.
My experience is the same as @AbdulAlhazred's. Likewise my view of the rules.

Skill challenges are all fiction. The DMG states clearly that (i) declared actions must make fictional sense, and (ii) that the GM narrates consequences that reframe the fictional situation. The DMG2 elaborates on this quite a bit.

A skill challenge in which the GM's framing is such that 6 Athletics rolls in a row succeed, within nothing else happening or nothing flowing from the making of those rolls one after another, sounds like the most boring example imaginable. And the mountain-climbing challenge in which nothing is narrated, and no checks have to actually be framed within an evolving fiction so play is literally just the calling out of a list of rolls, likewise seems pretty uninspired.

On the other hand, suppose that the GM describes the mountain with its pterodactyls. And then one player explains how their PC calms the pterodactyls, and that is about to be resolved having regard to the fact that they are strange creatures and the other characters aren't very good with animals. And then another player says, "No, you go out on your own. While you distract and calm them, we'll sneak past". And so the even bolder animal handling is resolved first, and then the stealth for the other PCs, and then one of them says "I'm going to put sleeping juice in the fodder in their nests, to reduce the number who can eventually come back and harass us while climbing". And so that gets resolved too. And then the crafting PC resolves the preparation of the climbing gear, including nails in the shoes; and then the climb is resolved, having regard to the reduced pterodactyl interference due to the sleeping juice that many of them consumed.

What is wrong with that? And how is it supposed to be an example of fiction not mattering? The fiction is feeding into the framing of the action declarations at every point, including the fiction established by their resolution contributes to the framing of the next action.
 
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I will summon @thefutilist on this: I think that one point thefutilist has made in previous posts is to contrast the relatively "closed" situation of In A Wicked Age (all the "players" are on the board from the outset, with their "best interests" laid out) with an approach like how you describe Dungeon World, or how I think of Burning Wheel, where the PCs have "best interests" (bonds, alignment, beliefs, etc) but the situation is established by the GM during, and unfolds during, play.

So to ramble on about it.

Best interests were (and I think still are) Vincent's term for the motivating force of a character.

As a game mechanic in IAWA, they're formalised so as create an unstable situation (characters in conflict) and to guide the GM in framing scenes (kind of). They're skeletal though, by which I mean when play begins and the characters are actually talking we might find out more about them.


So say for instance I have a Captain of the guard and his best interests are: One, Marry the princess. Two, retain the respect of my troops. What's important is how they're used in creating latent conflict. So the Princess has as one of her Interests: Marry the Prince from a different land and the Vizier has: Shame the Captain in front of his troops.

IAWA gets a bit tricky at this point because what will usually happen is the table begins to expand on this before play. So the Princess player says she's in love with the Captain but she's marrying the foreign Prince to foster peace between the warring people. Basically creating a ton more backstory. The Vizier does the same, say in the Captains younger days he fled from a battle. There's some back and forth and it's decided the Captain fleeing was more of an act of mercy towards the opposition.

Sometimes this doesn't happen pre-play but occurs in game when the scenes are set. This can be a bit taxing on play for various reasons but some amount of it will happen. Sometimes the fleshing out doesn't occur at all and the game is flat and lifeless and no one cares.

Anyway you can create the best interests, flesh out the situation pre-play and then erase the best interests, they're not actually relevant at that point.


As DW or BW is often described, you're always using them to frame the next scene. The difference becomes really noticeable when a PCs beliefs change. In DW or BW this probably means you're hitting the new beliefs again in the next scene, come hell or high water. In IAWA (Or Sorcerer), we're probably dependant upon what the GM decides to have the NPC's do and in Sorcerer (explicitly) and IAWA, that doesn't have anything to do with the PC's beliefs at all.
 

So I am not quite sure how literally I should understand "the map and key" in the OP.
It is used literally:
Here is what I mean by map-and-key:

* The GM prepares a map;

* The GM keys the map - that is, there are notes about what is to be found, or what is happening, at various points/places on the map;

* During the actual play of the game, an important category of action declaration for the players is describing the movements of their PCs on the map;

* As the players have their PCs move on the map, the GM consults the key to work out what occurs to the PCs;

* In this way, the material in the GM's key serves as a list of "proto-" or "latent" situations: these become actual situations - that is, scenes that are actually framed by the GM and played out - when the players trigger them by having their PCs go to some appropriate place on the map.​

I don't think that this is literally how most gaming even in D&D and similar games work.
OK. I don't think the OP makes any claim about how preponderant various approaches to establishing and progressing scenes/situations are. Although @Micah Sweet seems to think that map-and-key is common enough to count as a norm or a default, so you may wish to take that up with him.

If you have predetermined obstacles, then you need to actually engage with the situation, and have actual solution to them. And some solutions are better than others, so what you decide to do actually matters.
This seems to be a description of a type of puzzle-solving play. Skill challenges obviously are very different from this.
 

As I posted upthread, I don't know where this "should" is coming from. It seems to assume some way of presenting and resolving a situation that is not a skill challenge! But if one is using a skill challenge, then how can it be that some action "should" bring things to a resolution here-and-now?
It occurs to me that a parallel situation might be 'I roleplayed out that conversation so well, why is the GM still making me roll a Diplomacy check?'. Either engage the mechanics or do not. It's not the game's fault if you choose a resolution method you didn't want.
 

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