Alternatives to map-and-key

It occurs to me that a parallel situation might be 'I roleplayed out that conversation so well, why is the GM still making me roll a Diplomacy check?'. Either engage the mechanics or do not. It's not the game's fault if you choose a resolution method you didn't want.
And another possibility - that I'm used to from 4e D&D and Burning Wheel - is that the player has to tell us what their PC is saying in order to enliven a check at all; and that if their narration or performance is terrific, then they get +2 (in 4e) or an advantage die (in BW).

The idea that mechanics are an alternative to actually describing actions seems fairly common, but that's not the only possible way of approaching RPG action resolution.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I don't want to get so wrapped up in SCs, so, lets say one last thing about them which is pretty important IMHO:

The way they are presented in the 4e DMGs, less so in DMG2, but even in the RC to a degree, is as a sort of 'solve a situation' tool. The text talks about things like 'a negotiation with the Duke', or the RC example (which is better) is one where a party is investigating a demon attack. These are fairly narrow in scope. They do have a GOAL, and the other mechanical elements, and CONSEQUENCES, but there isn't a lot of sausage in the middle! I want more sausage! That is, I want the SC to present a complex enough series of situations, within the context of a goal, to frame a sufficiency of circumstances.

The infamous Duke Negotiation example from DMG1 (and the others in that book IIRC) fails this sausage test miserably! All that is given is you are going to endlessly jaw with the Duke until either he gets tired of you and throws you out on your asses, or you get your stuff. No mechanism of advancing the situation in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER is provided. This is a dog forsaken horror of an SC, like 0 on a 1 to 10 scale! There's no sausage AT ALL here. It should be resolved as a single skill check!

The RC example is considerably better, though it does kind of rely on how the players react. They all sort of just spontaneously move off in different directions picking up different leads and whatnot, but at least each clue/investigation does naturally ask another question that must then be answered. But it is a bit staged in that the players seem to magically all ask questions that require different skills to answer. Still, it definitely illustrates situation evolving (a bit) and fiction building on outcomes of actions by the characters. I'm still hungry, there's still not enough sausage here.

What I mean is, SCs should be 'scoped' out to a level where the situation evolves. Don't frame an SC where the action is searching a room! It has no scope to evolve, no sausage. I can't move on to another activity, I have to keep doubling down on something in this room until I am done. This is the problem that @Crimson Longinus is running into, see. He's now stuck inventing reasons to roll some more, when the whole situation was worth a single Perception check, or a couple of checks.

My pretend example of the Mountain, better. We have climbing, fighting, potentially animal handling, maybe navigation, survival, a number of scenarios could arise while climbing a mountain, especially in a fantasy world. I could even widen the scope more if say, the challenge started in a local village nearby where the PCs can look for supplies, guides, maps, lore, etc. Tons of stuff could come to bear. Heck, I can make it a high complexity challenge and use many skills.
 

Totally disagree. The situation is simply all fiction. It is just up to the GM to frame the situations as checks, or not in some cases. There are 5 levels of complexity available here, requiring 4, 6, 8, 10, or 12 successes (and thus between that number and 2 more) total rolls. It is pretty easy to make it work without any need to turn the fiction into 'fluff'.

Here's the thing that I think trips people up. This is a very solid Narrativist type mechanic. There's not some purely pre-determined fiction that has to be navigated and doled out in a specific way. The fiction is what it is. The characters are not 'in a challenge', they're just moving through their environment solving problems. At certain intervals they may achieve sub-goals. These correspond to success in the current SC at the game level. Setbacks correspond to failed SCs.
If only it actually stated any of the above in the DMG. As it was, it just felt to me like a creaky, overly mechanistic way to resolve extended non-combat situations. I tried it a couple times and gave up.
 

Seriously? Because this is not a fair, or accurate, description of SCs in total. The rules ALSO state that skill use has to make sense in the fiction, the player must justify their use of a skill in a specific situation. This is not some dice rolling game. It is an RPG, remember!? You had to read the entire section (it is only a couple pages) to get those quotes. Don't make me conclude that this is not an argument in good faith, eh?

Again, you need to argue in good faith. It is a STORY in which, at certain points, the players are going to need to make decisions and roll dice to see if they successfully navigate towards or away from their goals. This requires them to tell the GM what they are doing, and they MAY suggest a skill or ability to check against. Otherwise the GM may choose one. As of the first errata the GM also chooses whom to require next to make a skill check, though presumably the players have some input on this as well, given that they are describing their actions.

And As a skill challenge, how would this be wildly different? I would note that the players would know (as in, hey I'm going to run this as a CL5 SC) that they need 12 successes. Now, you have a couple choices here as GM. You could run this as a single SC, or even a couple of smaller ones, but assuming it is one, then you'd consider the failure count, this is probably something you can interpret a couple ways, but maybe a clean way is to think of it as both having done something that will be noticed eventually, and some period of time having elapsed in which there is leeway to still get away.

And the successes are just that, picking locks, moving to specific places, etc. Failing to overcome a guard for instance could be handled in a 'fail forward' kind of way with "Well, it took 5 minutes to successfully get the jump on the guard, he was very watchful" So you might proceed but with less time remaining. Or the players go out a different exit that is less advantageous, etc. No situation is without any leeway to move it along. This structure is actually HELPING you because it is avoiding hopeless no-win situations, which are no fun to play.

No, they don't!
"A skill challenge represents a series of tests that adventurers must face[...]—all of these situations
present opportunities for skill challenges, because they take time and a variety of
skills to overcome
." -Rules Compendium P 157

"A skill challenge should not replace the roleplaying, the puzzling, and
the ingenuity that players put into handling those situations. Instead, it allows the
Dungeon Master to define the adventurers’ efforts within the rules structure so
that the players understand their options and the DM can more easily adjudicate
the outcome." -Ibid

"The DM might tell the players which skills to use, let
them improvise which ones they use, or both." -Ibid

Page 158 -Components of a Skill Challenge- then goes into the elements making it up, which include
1. A Goal
2. Level and DCs - The GM sets a level, which determines the DCs. If a Challenge was extremely difficult, the GM can simply set the level of the challenge higher, relative to the PC's level. Here we get another bit of information:
"Most skill checks in a typical challenge are against the moderate DC of the
challenge’s level (see the Difficulty Class by Level table, page 126). However,
after a character has used a particular skill to achieve a success against the
moderate DC, later uses of that skill in the challenge by the same character
should be against the hard DC." -Rules Compendium P158-159

3. Complexity - every challenge has a complexity, from CL1 to CL5. CL2+ include an increasing number of hard DCs (4 at CL5). PCs also get 'advantages', starting at CL3, which just means they have the ability to get a mechanical bonus of some sort, like A success at a hard DC might also count as a moderate success, giving 2 successes, etc. The GM is in charge of how these are allowed, the players need to specify, in fictional terms, how they try to achieve them. So, for instance a Wizard might spend 50gp casting a ritual. This could count as a success and an additional success, with the player describing how he uses the ritual, and why it is advantageous, and the GM giving out the advantage where merited, and describing the outcome.

4. Primary and Secondary Skills - Normally an SC will have Party Size + 2 skills, of which 2 or 3 will be secondary (so typically 4 primary and 3 secondary for a party of 5). Primary skills MAY be limited total number of uses allowed, no precise number is given, but 2 + CL is suggested. Secondary skills can contribute AT MOST one success to a challenge, and may simply enable another skill, give a bonus to a primary check, etc.

5. Consequences - success or failure will have narrative consequences, and may have mechanical ones as well. The rules don't really dictate what these are, they relate to the story.

There are a number of examples, the one in the RC is notable in that each interaction which produces a check leads to a new circumstance or need, which then requires a DIFFERENT check. There's no spamming some one skill, this is simply a Trojan Horse of an argument against SCs. STOP USING IT!

I f you were to read DMG1, 2, and the RC you will find that you are reducing things to a bit of a drastic level.

PRIMARILY the overall situation in an SC is not static. And what skills can be deployed at a given moment depends on fiction, not some rote formula. It might indeed seem best to a player if he can simply roll Athletics 12 times, but how is he going to explain that to the GM? What is the fiction? As soon as he makes the first such check, the fictional position of the PCs is going to change, they swam across the moat, and now they need to sneak through the postern, how is another Athletics check going to do that? It just doesn't fly.

So, I think the rules that 4e presents ARE imperfect in some ways. I don't personally believe in the idea of any set Skills, such as the RC rules state. The fiction will dictate what skills might be brought into play at each stage, and they are almost sure to be different each time.

I think there's also a good bit of 'art' involved in really good SCs. If you find that yours don't seem very dynamic, maybe you are focusing too much on one small piece of action. Widen the scope. Instead of "how do we cross the river" make the challenge about the overall expedition to cross The Great Neck, gathering supplies, negotiating with natives, finding a guide, keeping the porters happy. There's plenty of variety of stuff that might be required. As long as you can describe the GOAL, the DIFFICULTY, COMPLEXITY, and CONSEQUENCES, you will be able to make it work quite well!
I was soured on SCs after trying them out with the original rules a few times. Never bothered revisting when they "fixed" them in what I saw as another example of 4e's infinite errata system. To be honest, the whole idea of formal skill challenges never appealed to me anyway, but it was official D&D and that mattered to me at the time, so I gave it a shot.
 

Just for the sake of clarity: am I right that you've got in mind that the whole "shorter path" idea only makes sense if the GM is making relatively unconstrained decisions about the consequences, in/for the fiction, of the PC succeeding at this action or that action; and so decides that this action will achieve <this much> progress towards the "finish line", whereas that action will achieve <this greater amount of> progress towards the "finish line"
Yes, in a manner of speaking.

A shorter path relies on the idea that there is some 'right answer' in a situation. It denies that the fictional events of the game should be the product of the processes of play.

One cannot postulate a discrepancy between the fiction and the system unless one believes that the fiction is independent of it. This is the central tenet of railroading and illusionism.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top