Am I a cruel DM?
- Thread starter Ambrus
- Start date
Raven,
It's a pleasure to slip into a more civil tone in dealing with one of the posts on this thread.
A few points in response to your latest post:
1. I think there is a distinction between people feeling "down" and people concluding that the thing that made them feel this way was a mistake. (See my Empire Strikes Back rant above)
2. I agree with you that there are some unanswered questions that make it difficult to really render any conclusive judgement.
3. While I agree that the GMing of the gnomes was sub-perfect, so is everything we do. So I addressed myself to the question: does this seem more error-ridden than solid competent GMing usually is?
4. I agree that like the theory of the profit-maximizing term, rational self-interest is almost never true individually and almost always true generally.
Or, in the alternative (as I know from bitter experience), suddenly decide that if they have screwed you over, they mustn't have really liked you after all.
6. Just a minor correction: the cleric casting the geas was, in no way, unable to interact with the party.
7. If we assume a normal rate of level progression, we can guess that if Ambrus's party started at first level (and I suspect they started the quest a little higher), they should be 7th or 8th level by now. If the person making the Diplomacy check was an 8th level bard who started with a Charisma of 16 and maxed-out their Diplomacy skill, we can expect a Diplomacy check of +15 (+4 Cha, +11 ranks). Of course if they have 5 ranks in Know-Nobility or started with a Cha of 18, they would have a +17, both, +19; higher than 8th level... Such numbers are not that uncommon. I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of the Diplomacy table in the PHB -- it seems a little weird to me that a Bard, Paladin or Rogue who has invested sensibly in the skill could start making NPCs abandon their own agendas by rolling 10 or better once they reach 10th level or higher; at least Bardic music has saving throws.
Anyway, that's just what came to mind after reading your post.
It's a pleasure to slip into a more civil tone in dealing with one of the posts on this thread.
A few points in response to your latest post:
1. I think there is a distinction between people feeling "down" and people concluding that the thing that made them feel this way was a mistake. (See my Empire Strikes Back rant above)
2. I agree with you that there are some unanswered questions that make it difficult to really render any conclusive judgement.
3. While I agree that the GMing of the gnomes was sub-perfect, so is everything we do. So I addressed myself to the question: does this seem more error-ridden than solid competent GMing usually is?
4. I agree that like the theory of the profit-maximizing term, rational self-interest is almost never true individually and almost always true generally.
Or, in the alternative (as I know from bitter experience), suddenly decide that if they have screwed you over, they mustn't have really liked you after all.
6. Just a minor correction: the cleric casting the geas was, in no way, unable to interact with the party.
7. If we assume a normal rate of level progression, we can guess that if Ambrus's party started at first level (and I suspect they started the quest a little higher), they should be 7th or 8th level by now. If the person making the Diplomacy check was an 8th level bard who started with a Charisma of 16 and maxed-out their Diplomacy skill, we can expect a Diplomacy check of +15 (+4 Cha, +11 ranks). Of course if they have 5 ranks in Know-Nobility or started with a Cha of 18, they would have a +17, both, +19; higher than 8th level... Such numbers are not that uncommon. I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of the Diplomacy table in the PHB -- it seems a little weird to me that a Bard, Paladin or Rogue who has invested sensibly in the skill could start making NPCs abandon their own agendas by rolling 10 or better once they reach 10th level or higher; at least Bardic music has saving throws.
Anyway, that's just what came to mind after reading your post.
NPC said:
That's good NPC because that's also what I was talking about. So, to rephrase again, if Ambrus had done precisely what swrushing instructed him to do and Noelani was still unhappy with his performance as a DM, would following swrushing's advice still have been a "mistake"?
FireLance
Legend
Yes, it would have been a mistake. But to be fair to swrushing, he doesn't know Ambrus's players, so he doesn't know any better than you or I what would or would not work with them.fusangite said:
That said, I don't see what's the big deal about admitting that a mistake has been made. DMs will try stuff in the game, and if it doesn't work, he should take note of it and move on. Mistakes happen. The DM doesn't have to beat himself up over it, but neither should he whitewash over it and ignore the fact what he tried didn't work.
From personal experience, I once set up a scenario in game (we were playing Planescape) where the party was verbally abused by a squad of Mercykillers (a gang that holds to the philosophy that all lawbreakers must be punished). One of the players didn't like the Mercykillers' attitude and decided to attack them. The party was hopelessly outnumbered and a TPK resulted. Could I have handled it better? Of course I could have. Were the players upset? You bet they were. Did I make a mistake? Of course I did. But at least I acknowledged it and learned from it and I'm sure my handling of games has improved as a result.
To absolve the DM of all responsibility when a game goes wrong or a player is unhappy is just as ludicrious as the proposition that a DM is entirely to blame when a player does not enjoy a session.
fusangite said:
I have noticed that when unable to make a cogent reply, you have a fetish for retreating to technobabble. Why is this?
It truly is fascinating that after 10 pages of this, you are still none the wiser.
Cliffhangers done well, is good.
Cliffhangers done badly, is bad.
This cliffhanger done badly.
No buildup.
No foreshadowing.
No context.
Pulled out of DM's ass on spur of the moment, without any planning at all.
Simple!
Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with that, _if done right_.
See above, O eight-year-old mind.
At least when this thread is finished, Toronto won't have to worry about all that excess straw forming a fire hazard.
Nobody said they'd all want to quit the campaign. One badly executed session won't kill most campaigns, this one included. However, that doesn't mean that if this sort of thing happens repeatedly, the DM doesn't risk their players eventually going elsewhere. Of course, there are some DMs who like living on the edge, but I like to think that's a conscious choice, not simply a byproduct of mulishness.
Spin, my little people, spin! Are you finished arguing with yourself yet?
I never said that it was unreasonable for characters never to lose the object of their quest. I said that the execution of the plot twist was wanting. That you apparently are unable to distinguish between the idea and the execution is nobody's problem but yours.
All == probable for all practical purposes. Trust me, I'm a statistician.
... or the DM could simply have more social skills than a walnut. I think I might have mentioned this before.
Because at the end of the day, the DM's performance is rated according to the reactions of their players. Learn this.
Ah, right. So Ambrus DID come here to complain about how everyone liked the game.
Only in your world, where the colour of the sky is undetermined, but possibly a fetching shade of purple.
The issue is not whether or not Ambrus behaved unreasonably. The issue is what caused the ill-feeling that is self-evident to everyone (except you, apparently) and how he can best fix that. Do stop tilting at windmills.
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Raven Crowking
First Post
fusangite said:
I agree with you here. I'm not even sure that the people who are arguing with you are completely averse to the idea.
Hey, Ambrus asked.
Within normal tolerance? Yes.
Handled the best way possible? No.
Liable to make the PCs unlikely to trust NPCs in the future? Yes.
Liable to make the PCs willing to help NPCs in the future? No.
Damage control on the last two points needed? Yes.
Should the DM claim mea culpa and rewrite history? Absolutely not.
It is my understanding that the PCs were not warned about the geas because of her "vow of silence."
RC
Raven Crowking
First Post
It might be useful to recap what actually happened at this point, because it is covered over the course of several posts and several pages. Here’s what happened in Ambrus’ game, from my understanding….and using a lot of cut-and-pasting. Feel free to correct me if I've missed anything important.
For the last 35+ sessions, the party has been embroiled in a quest to recover an artefact. They've successfully played through the Banewarrens adventure (at the end of which Ambrus placed the artefact). This adventure is taking place in a city built on an airborne island of stone high above the earth. The city is gearing up for a war, and is taking special precautions related to items going into and out of the city. The artefact is about the size of a large chest. It has an antimagic field, which prevents it from being teleported or plane shifted. We are informed by one of the players that the artefact is “the most valuable thing in the world.”
Naturally there are other factions outside the party who want the artefact for their own ends. These include a branch of a LG church, a group of heretical demon-worshippers, and a “seemingly neutral group of gnome and dwarf psions trying to fulfil an ancient prophecy.”
The party's investigation into the gnome's activities (tunnelling into the dungeon) led them to seek out a high placed member of the LG church, a cardinal, who they befriended, and whose help and advice they wanted. In trying to help the PCs on their quest, the Cardinal has cast numerous spells (restorations, cures, break enchantments, raise deads, communes) for free (except for the material costs). At one point, he suggested to the party that it would be in their best interest to form/join a holy order, sanctioned by himself, dedicated to this “holy” quest (recovering the artefact). He told them that it would help shield them from the crown if they were ever apprehended doing something seemingly illegal.
(In Ambrus’ campaign, as in the real-world Middle Ages, ecclesiastics have their own legal system separate from the state's legal system. As members of a holy order they could simply claim to be on church business and somewhat exempt from state prosecution.)
Together they penned a charter for their new holy order incorporating the party's gods and philosophies rather than just the Cardinal's god (which is quite progressive and somewhat unorthodox for the Cardinal's church). After dark they went to the cathedral to seek out the blessing and advice of an ancient elven anchoress (a religious recluse under a vow of silence) who lives entombed in a small cell in the floor of the cathedral. Together they prayed and each read through the party's newly scribed charter (including the Cardinal). This charter had no mention of the party being geased as a result of forming this order.
As each of them finished reading the oath "to retrieve and return to the gods the [sought out artefact]" she cast a silenced geas on each of them. She did it because she'd been waiting for a group of heroes to fulfill this quest on her behalf, but she was weary of putting her complete faith in a group of strangers she'd just met. Because of her vow of silence, she did not warn the characters that she was going to do this. The cardinal didn't know the anchoress was going to cast geas beforehand so he didn't warn the party.
At least one player felt that the geas was coercive. At least one player stated that he felt the geas made the adventure feel special, as though the party was sanctioned by the gods. Ambrus states that it did not occur to him that casting Geas/Quest might be considered cruel.
After the party was all geased, the Abbess used an unseen servant to lift out of the floor a king's ransom in donations and tithes she'd collected over the previous century (60 000 gp worth) for the party to use as they saw fit during the quest. A shopping spree ensued shortly thereafter.
Ambrus has toned down the effects of the geas to make it more player friendly. They've never suffered any damage from it. They actually took a ten day week of down time to re-equip and have some magic items made. The first few days nothing happened except for a general feeling of anxiousness, the next few days brought a growing sense of unease and anxiety. Only by the end of the week did they start suffering any ill effects in the form of nausea. It all disappeared as soon as they resolved to head back into the dungeon the next day.
The anchoress is LG and will most likely remove the geas if it becomes life threatening and she is told about what happened. It is uncertain whether or not the players had any means of knowing this.
(Continued Next Post)
For the last 35+ sessions, the party has been embroiled in a quest to recover an artefact. They've successfully played through the Banewarrens adventure (at the end of which Ambrus placed the artefact). This adventure is taking place in a city built on an airborne island of stone high above the earth. The city is gearing up for a war, and is taking special precautions related to items going into and out of the city. The artefact is about the size of a large chest. It has an antimagic field, which prevents it from being teleported or plane shifted. We are informed by one of the players that the artefact is “the most valuable thing in the world.”
Naturally there are other factions outside the party who want the artefact for their own ends. These include a branch of a LG church, a group of heretical demon-worshippers, and a “seemingly neutral group of gnome and dwarf psions trying to fulfil an ancient prophecy.”
The party's investigation into the gnome's activities (tunnelling into the dungeon) led them to seek out a high placed member of the LG church, a cardinal, who they befriended, and whose help and advice they wanted. In trying to help the PCs on their quest, the Cardinal has cast numerous spells (restorations, cures, break enchantments, raise deads, communes) for free (except for the material costs). At one point, he suggested to the party that it would be in their best interest to form/join a holy order, sanctioned by himself, dedicated to this “holy” quest (recovering the artefact). He told them that it would help shield them from the crown if they were ever apprehended doing something seemingly illegal.
(In Ambrus’ campaign, as in the real-world Middle Ages, ecclesiastics have their own legal system separate from the state's legal system. As members of a holy order they could simply claim to be on church business and somewhat exempt from state prosecution.)
Together they penned a charter for their new holy order incorporating the party's gods and philosophies rather than just the Cardinal's god (which is quite progressive and somewhat unorthodox for the Cardinal's church). After dark they went to the cathedral to seek out the blessing and advice of an ancient elven anchoress (a religious recluse under a vow of silence) who lives entombed in a small cell in the floor of the cathedral. Together they prayed and each read through the party's newly scribed charter (including the Cardinal). This charter had no mention of the party being geased as a result of forming this order.
As each of them finished reading the oath "to retrieve and return to the gods the [sought out artefact]" she cast a silenced geas on each of them. She did it because she'd been waiting for a group of heroes to fulfill this quest on her behalf, but she was weary of putting her complete faith in a group of strangers she'd just met. Because of her vow of silence, she did not warn the characters that she was going to do this. The cardinal didn't know the anchoress was going to cast geas beforehand so he didn't warn the party.
At least one player felt that the geas was coercive. At least one player stated that he felt the geas made the adventure feel special, as though the party was sanctioned by the gods. Ambrus states that it did not occur to him that casting Geas/Quest might be considered cruel.
After the party was all geased, the Abbess used an unseen servant to lift out of the floor a king's ransom in donations and tithes she'd collected over the previous century (60 000 gp worth) for the party to use as they saw fit during the quest. A shopping spree ensued shortly thereafter.
Ambrus has toned down the effects of the geas to make it more player friendly. They've never suffered any damage from it. They actually took a ten day week of down time to re-equip and have some magic items made. The first few days nothing happened except for a general feeling of anxiousness, the next few days brought a growing sense of unease and anxiety. Only by the end of the week did they start suffering any ill effects in the form of nausea. It all disappeared as soon as they resolved to head back into the dungeon the next day.
The anchoress is LG and will most likely remove the geas if it becomes life threatening and she is told about what happened. It is uncertain whether or not the players had any means of knowing this.
(Continued Next Post)
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Raven Crowking
First Post
(Continued From Last Post)
On the way out of the dungeon, the party successfully repelled an ambush by the demon-worshipping faction. They then met up with some of the psion gnomes in the dungeon with whom they'd developed an alliance of sorts (though both groups originally started on the wrong foot when they first met, resulting in some gnome deaths). They did have a few violent conflicts with this faction. But the party did try to make it up to them by helping to pay for some of the gnomes to be raised later. After that, relations were a bit tense but some characters on both sides tried to champion the idea of cooperating.
The party decided to trust the gnomes because they wanted their help getting the artefact out of the city above secretly. The gnomes had a flying ship waiting at the docks for just this purpose. They did talk about what they were going to do with the artefact briefly. The gnomes admitted truthfully that they wanted to bring it back to their venerable dwarf lady messiah (which the party met at the beginning of the campaign, fought briefly and remained dubious about) while the party stated their general intention of carrying it through a portal into a fairy realm to ask a PC's fairy-queen/goddess' opinion about it. They never really resolved these opposing plans but did generally agree that their first concern was getting the artefact safely out of the city.
The group didn't cast any divination spells to determine the general truthfulness of the gnomes. They did do a sense motive check when one of the gnomes told us his plan. He was really clear what he was going to do, about the crates and getting us onto the ship, etc. The PC in question rolled a very high check. Although the gnome still seemed sincere, the PC still didn't trust them, and has been the voice of dissention against the gnomes from the beginning.
The party has several members with very high Charismas: 20, 19, and 18. They made their intentions very clear to the gnomes. They spoke to them kindly and reasonably, with at least one Diplomacy check of 30. It was the contention of at least one player that “If we can't win people over to our side, no one can.”
The group did consider putting a pseudodragon familiar and/or a sprite cohort into the box but decided that there was just wasn't enough spare room in the crate for that.
Finally, the gnomes convinced the party that the only way to safely get on the ship and out of the city was to have all the party members (along with the artefact) placed into wooden crates and carried onto the ship. It is unclear as to whether this was originally a PC’s idea or a gnome’s; posts vary on this detail.
According to Ambrus, it went something like this (paraphrasing):
PC1: We could have the gnomes carry us aboard in crates.
PC2: Alright but you and me should be locked in the same crate along with it. (two medium sized characters with the chest-sized artefact).
NPC: Whoa, there is a maximum size of crate that can be loaded onto the ship.
PC2: Well how big?
NPC gnome: Not much bigger than this (mimes a cube roughly 3-4 ft big)
PC1: Are the crates ready made? Is there any flexibility on their size?
DM: They have some crates ready made but they also have a supply of boards & nails and are able to build them to fit.
(Although the NPCs are apparently sincere at this time, one wonders why a larger crate cannot be loaded onto the ship.)
PC2: I know, we can have your (PC1) pseudodragon and the sprite cohort (PC3) inside the crate with the artefact.
PC1: No it won't fit with them.
PC2: Why? they're Tiny.
PC1: Yeah but they still take up room in the crate. There won't be much room in the crate aside from the artefact.
PC2: No they're Tiny. That's nothing.
PC1: No it'll be too tight for them. There's no room.
PC3: Sprite, in what crate do you want to go?
NPC sprite: With you of course! (he's madly in love with PC3).
PC1: Besides, I'll need to have my pseudodragon with me in my crate because [convoluted story-specific reason].
NPC: Well, you all could be in these crates for as long as a day. They'll be cramped. The big folk (the medium sized PCs) should only be loaded one to a crate. You'll need room to move a bit and we'll load you up with some waterskins, bread and cheese and a chamber pot. Though the others (the small sized PCs) can fit in the same crate if they want.
PC2 and PC4 (the small sized PCs) decline this offer.
NPC: You'll have to be perfectly quiet the whole time.
PC3: How long will we be in there?
NPC: We'll load you in the crates tonight after dark. You'll then be carried to the docks during the night, probably wait there for a bit until you're loaded into the cargo hold and then you'll have to stay put until well after we've left port, which should be sometime tomorrow morning. It could be as long as 24 hours.
PC3: But how will we get out?
NPC: We'll break you out when it's safe.
PC3 remains dubious about this plan.
PC1 then gives the gnome a series of instructions on how his crate must be kept close to the artefact crate at all times and how they should be carried together and loaded onto the ship simultaneously, etc.
(Continued Next Post)
On the way out of the dungeon, the party successfully repelled an ambush by the demon-worshipping faction. They then met up with some of the psion gnomes in the dungeon with whom they'd developed an alliance of sorts (though both groups originally started on the wrong foot when they first met, resulting in some gnome deaths). They did have a few violent conflicts with this faction. But the party did try to make it up to them by helping to pay for some of the gnomes to be raised later. After that, relations were a bit tense but some characters on both sides tried to champion the idea of cooperating.
The party decided to trust the gnomes because they wanted their help getting the artefact out of the city above secretly. The gnomes had a flying ship waiting at the docks for just this purpose. They did talk about what they were going to do with the artefact briefly. The gnomes admitted truthfully that they wanted to bring it back to their venerable dwarf lady messiah (which the party met at the beginning of the campaign, fought briefly and remained dubious about) while the party stated their general intention of carrying it through a portal into a fairy realm to ask a PC's fairy-queen/goddess' opinion about it. They never really resolved these opposing plans but did generally agree that their first concern was getting the artefact safely out of the city.
The group didn't cast any divination spells to determine the general truthfulness of the gnomes. They did do a sense motive check when one of the gnomes told us his plan. He was really clear what he was going to do, about the crates and getting us onto the ship, etc. The PC in question rolled a very high check. Although the gnome still seemed sincere, the PC still didn't trust them, and has been the voice of dissention against the gnomes from the beginning.
The party has several members with very high Charismas: 20, 19, and 18. They made their intentions very clear to the gnomes. They spoke to them kindly and reasonably, with at least one Diplomacy check of 30. It was the contention of at least one player that “If we can't win people over to our side, no one can.”
The group did consider putting a pseudodragon familiar and/or a sprite cohort into the box but decided that there was just wasn't enough spare room in the crate for that.
Finally, the gnomes convinced the party that the only way to safely get on the ship and out of the city was to have all the party members (along with the artefact) placed into wooden crates and carried onto the ship. It is unclear as to whether this was originally a PC’s idea or a gnome’s; posts vary on this detail.
According to Ambrus, it went something like this (paraphrasing):
PC1: We could have the gnomes carry us aboard in crates.
PC2: Alright but you and me should be locked in the same crate along with it. (two medium sized characters with the chest-sized artefact).
NPC: Whoa, there is a maximum size of crate that can be loaded onto the ship.
PC2: Well how big?
NPC gnome: Not much bigger than this (mimes a cube roughly 3-4 ft big)
PC1: Are the crates ready made? Is there any flexibility on their size?
DM: They have some crates ready made but they also have a supply of boards & nails and are able to build them to fit.
(Although the NPCs are apparently sincere at this time, one wonders why a larger crate cannot be loaded onto the ship.)
PC2: I know, we can have your (PC1) pseudodragon and the sprite cohort (PC3) inside the crate with the artefact.
PC1: No it won't fit with them.
PC2: Why? they're Tiny.
PC1: Yeah but they still take up room in the crate. There won't be much room in the crate aside from the artefact.
PC2: No they're Tiny. That's nothing.
PC1: No it'll be too tight for them. There's no room.
PC3: Sprite, in what crate do you want to go?
NPC sprite: With you of course! (he's madly in love with PC3).
PC1: Besides, I'll need to have my pseudodragon with me in my crate because [convoluted story-specific reason].
NPC: Well, you all could be in these crates for as long as a day. They'll be cramped. The big folk (the medium sized PCs) should only be loaded one to a crate. You'll need room to move a bit and we'll load you up with some waterskins, bread and cheese and a chamber pot. Though the others (the small sized PCs) can fit in the same crate if they want.
PC2 and PC4 (the small sized PCs) decline this offer.
NPC: You'll have to be perfectly quiet the whole time.
PC3: How long will we be in there?
NPC: We'll load you in the crates tonight after dark. You'll then be carried to the docks during the night, probably wait there for a bit until you're loaded into the cargo hold and then you'll have to stay put until well after we've left port, which should be sometime tomorrow morning. It could be as long as 24 hours.
PC3: But how will we get out?
NPC: We'll break you out when it's safe.
PC3 remains dubious about this plan.
PC1 then gives the gnome a series of instructions on how his crate must be kept close to the artefact crate at all times and how they should be carried together and loaded onto the ship simultaneously, etc.
(Continued Next Post)
Raven Crowking
First Post
(Continued From Last Post)
Most of the factions aren't entirely of one mind. The gnomes that the party was speaking to, for instance, were sincere and were even crated themselves alongside the party. It was the members of the faction who were responsible for loading the ship who actually made the decision to leave the party behind because they still don't entirely trust them and were afraid they wouldn't be able to stop the party if it insisted on taking the artefact elsewhere.
(Apparently, this faction had some means of determining which crates contained gnomes, which contained PCs, and which contained the artefact without having to check, and without thereby alerting the PCs.)
As mentioned earlier, the gnomes and the party have had a rocky relationship. But members of both sides have tried to put that behind them and cooperate. It is noted that the party killed 2-3 of the gnomes and paid to have an unspecified “some” raised from the dead. At least one PC (Esme) was killed by the gnome faction. The party has eventually won over most of the gnomes they've dealt with personally. In the end, they were dealing with two gnomes, one who was already won over and one who was distrustful. Pretty quickly, the party won even this holdover to their side (even though their long term goals differed).
Ambrus states that when the Sense Motive check was made the gnome was truthfully relaying his immediate intentions to the PC gnome (to go talk to the other gnomes involved, arrange a place for the PCs to hide and to arrange the crating details and then to return to retrieve the party). These two gnomes had been won over by the party and were sincere in their efforts. They had themselves crated up alongside the party. It was the members of the gnome faction who they had entrusted to load them onto the ship and their superiors (whom the party had never personally encountered) who made the final decision to leave the party behind.
Ambrus states that it didn’t occur to the gnomes the PCs dealt with that they might get overruled by their allies. He also states that “the gnomes encountered the party and saw an opportunity they weren't expecting.”
The gnome faction did consider taking the PC gnome (whom they like and trust) with them but they were worried that the PCs would be able to track them down much easier if he was with them. The gnomes knew that the party had formed some kind of secret order, but were unaware that they had been geased (the party hasn't advertised that fact).
Ambrus states that he “didn't really plan what happened.” He didn't imagine that the opportunity to separate the party from the artefact would have presented itself so easily to the NPCs involved. The party has become one of the most powerful, unpredictable and dangerous factions involved in the race for the artefact. One of the other factions simply couldn't ignore this opportunity to separate them from it when it presented itself. What Ambrus did determine ahead of time was what each faction would do with the artefact if they managed to acquire it.
Later, after the party agrees to this plan, gets itself crated up (all in separate crates) and carried around by workmen, the party begins to suspect something is up. After half a day, they bust out of their crates only to realise that they are in a warehouse, still in the city, with their equipment but that the ship, gnomes and artefact are all long gone.
Overall, the tone at the end of the game was mostly melancholy, though a few (plural) of the players were quite upset. They had been fighting to recover this artefact for well over a year of gaming. Returning to the surface made the party giddy with excitement. Esme says: “We easily could have found another way to leave the city, but we were so exhausted and fearful to be caught by the authorities…that when the gnomes offered their ship, I jumped on the chance and did not give to much thought to betrayal.”
Esme also says: “It was a big disappointment to loose the artefact, after thinking we could trust the gnomes. It's disheartening and frustrating. I died and came back to recover the item. Noelanie has every right to feel the way she does.” He goes on: “hile Ambrus' decision might have been harsh, it was neither cruel, which implies malice and forethought, nor gratuitous, as demonstrated by his concern by our reaction. I think he is an impartial and fair judge of events. In this situation, events just got the better of the party. But I will not blame anyone in the group for feeling the way they do. it's only human.”
Ambrus summed up the way the group felt at the end of the session as follows:
"Have you ever seen Indiana Jones and the lost Ark?"
"Yeah, sure."
"Well, imagine that you're Indiana Jones and you've worked hard to get this Ark. Then, in the last ten minutes of the movie, nazis show up and snatch away the Ark right out of your hands. That's kind of how my players feel."
*pause*
"And you're the nazi?"
"Yeah... I'm the nazi."
(End Summary)
Most of the factions aren't entirely of one mind. The gnomes that the party was speaking to, for instance, were sincere and were even crated themselves alongside the party. It was the members of the faction who were responsible for loading the ship who actually made the decision to leave the party behind because they still don't entirely trust them and were afraid they wouldn't be able to stop the party if it insisted on taking the artefact elsewhere.
(Apparently, this faction had some means of determining which crates contained gnomes, which contained PCs, and which contained the artefact without having to check, and without thereby alerting the PCs.)
As mentioned earlier, the gnomes and the party have had a rocky relationship. But members of both sides have tried to put that behind them and cooperate. It is noted that the party killed 2-3 of the gnomes and paid to have an unspecified “some” raised from the dead. At least one PC (Esme) was killed by the gnome faction. The party has eventually won over most of the gnomes they've dealt with personally. In the end, they were dealing with two gnomes, one who was already won over and one who was distrustful. Pretty quickly, the party won even this holdover to their side (even though their long term goals differed).
Ambrus states that when the Sense Motive check was made the gnome was truthfully relaying his immediate intentions to the PC gnome (to go talk to the other gnomes involved, arrange a place for the PCs to hide and to arrange the crating details and then to return to retrieve the party). These two gnomes had been won over by the party and were sincere in their efforts. They had themselves crated up alongside the party. It was the members of the gnome faction who they had entrusted to load them onto the ship and their superiors (whom the party had never personally encountered) who made the final decision to leave the party behind.
Ambrus states that it didn’t occur to the gnomes the PCs dealt with that they might get overruled by their allies. He also states that “the gnomes encountered the party and saw an opportunity they weren't expecting.”
The gnome faction did consider taking the PC gnome (whom they like and trust) with them but they were worried that the PCs would be able to track them down much easier if he was with them. The gnomes knew that the party had formed some kind of secret order, but were unaware that they had been geased (the party hasn't advertised that fact).
Ambrus states that he “didn't really plan what happened.” He didn't imagine that the opportunity to separate the party from the artefact would have presented itself so easily to the NPCs involved. The party has become one of the most powerful, unpredictable and dangerous factions involved in the race for the artefact. One of the other factions simply couldn't ignore this opportunity to separate them from it when it presented itself. What Ambrus did determine ahead of time was what each faction would do with the artefact if they managed to acquire it.
Later, after the party agrees to this plan, gets itself crated up (all in separate crates) and carried around by workmen, the party begins to suspect something is up. After half a day, they bust out of their crates only to realise that they are in a warehouse, still in the city, with their equipment but that the ship, gnomes and artefact are all long gone.
Overall, the tone at the end of the game was mostly melancholy, though a few (plural) of the players were quite upset. They had been fighting to recover this artefact for well over a year of gaming. Returning to the surface made the party giddy with excitement. Esme says: “We easily could have found another way to leave the city, but we were so exhausted and fearful to be caught by the authorities…that when the gnomes offered their ship, I jumped on the chance and did not give to much thought to betrayal.”
Esme also says: “It was a big disappointment to loose the artefact, after thinking we could trust the gnomes. It's disheartening and frustrating. I died and came back to recover the item. Noelanie has every right to feel the way she does.” He goes on: “hile Ambrus' decision might have been harsh, it was neither cruel, which implies malice and forethought, nor gratuitous, as demonstrated by his concern by our reaction. I think he is an impartial and fair judge of events. In this situation, events just got the better of the party. But I will not blame anyone in the group for feeling the way they do. it's only human.”
Ambrus summed up the way the group felt at the end of the session as follows:
"Have you ever seen Indiana Jones and the lost Ark?"
"Yeah, sure."
"Well, imagine that you're Indiana Jones and you've worked hard to get this Ark. Then, in the last ten minutes of the movie, nazis show up and snatch away the Ark right out of your hands. That's kind of how my players feel."
*pause*
"And you're the nazi?"
"Yeah... I'm the nazi."
(End Summary)
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