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Am I a cruel DM?

Ambrus summed up the way the group felt at the end of the session as follows:

"Have you ever seen Indiana Jones and the lost Ark?"
"Yeah, sure."
"Well, imagine that you're Indiana Jones and you've worked hard to get this Ark. Then, in the last ten minutes of the movie, nazis show up and snatch away the Ark right out of your hands. That's kind of how my players feel."

*pause*

"And you're the nazi?"
"Yeah... I'm the nazi."
Might I point out that the nazis did, in fact, snatch the Ark away from Indy. Actually happened a couple times.

They took it from Indy and then sealed him up in the tomb.
They took it off the ship and put it on the sub.

And remember how the movie ended?

"We have top men working on it right now."
"Who?"
"Top. Men."
<scene of Ark in crate being stashed in a crowded warehouse>

And don't forget the very first artifact we see Indy "find". Bellock (sp?) took it from his very hands right at the exit from the cave.

Quasqueton
 

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Dr. Nuncheon,

Glad to have you aboard. In my own defence,

drnuncheon said:
Whatever hong or tac-9-7 or swrushing or fusangite or I says, we don't have all the data

I do make that point about incomplete data myself about once per page. Also in my own defence, at no point do I state that a player is 100% responsible for how a game makes her feel. I have merely staked out the position that GM responsibility for a player's feelings is less than 100%.

I think you provide some excellent and positive advice to aid Ambrus on his way.

Ambrus,

Is there anything more we can do on this thread that would actually be helpful to you or would you just like it to go away at this point?

I had actually formed the impression you had left in disgust a few pages ago prior to me advancing the theory I had been harbouring that the argument was, in part, a sublimated relationship dispute. I hope I didn't cause offence. (To you or your fiancee at least. ;))
 

Ambrus,
Is there anything more we can do on this thread that would actually be helpful to you or would you just like it to go away at this point?

Helpful? I'm not certain what exactly might be helpful to me at the moment. All of the interesting opinions offered by the ENworld collective have been helpful to me thus far. I've read every single post and they've given me a great deal to think about. I'm still blown away by the amount of debate my simple post has generated. In many ways the debate has moved beyond the scope of my game and taken on a life of its own. I'm curious to read what people have to say about it all. If people want to let the thread die that's cool. If people feel the desire to keep talking about it, well, that's cool too; I'll keep reading. :)

I had actually formed the impression you had left in disgust a few pages ago prior to me advancing the theory I had been harbouring that the argument was, in part, a sublimated relationship dispute. I hope I didn't cause offence. (To you or your fiancee at least. )

Actually I had stopped checking the thread last Wednesday when it slipped down onto the third page. It was only by accident yesterday morning that I noticed that the thread had continued to receive posts totaling over 200+. I was quite astounded and spent a few hours yesterday catching up. As for your theory, well, my fiancee and I would like you to know that you are in error. For what it's worth, she still claims I'm her favorite DM. :o
 

Wow! Uberthread!

Ambrus,

Thanks for posing the question, even if you didn't intend to generate this kind of response. It was a fun read. Personally, your campaign sounds like a blast, and I'm generally with the moderate opinion here (as a DM). Yes you could have handled it better, but I don't think your handling of it was either cruel or enough to end your DMing career. I will share a personal anecdote that's similar. In what my players (3 years later) are still calling the best campaign I ever ran the following situation occurred.

The city of Shantel (hometown of all 5 PCs) is being besieged by Grimosh the Lich (20th lvl cleric/wizard) and his army of undead, half-dragon/half-trolls, and various orcs, goblins, etc. He has arrived outside the city with his army and offers the city 3 days to surrender unconditionally. The PCs are 5 level at this point and Grimosh has been their major antagonit from the start. The reached the city before him, bringing news of his impending assault and so are on the city's walls to hear his offer. The NG dwarf cleric of Moradin, seething with righteous anger at the undead abomination below him defiantly fires off a searing blast, which against all odds breaks SR and causes a slight wound to the archlich. Said lich proceeds to throw a blade barrier up right behind the cleric and then pound him with fireballs until well done.

Killing that character was completely my call. I gave him no real chance to escape or survive. He did it knowing there was not a high enough level cleric in the city to raise him from the dead. I didn't feel sorry for one second. He was, of course, quite upset. My fiancee (happily now my wife) was also quite upset. We got past it. As is our custom, he was allowed to make a new character with minimum exp for the level he died at plus RP exp earned for the session where he lost his character. I gave him bonus RP exp for such a dramatic and in character response. My fiancee's bard used the character's death to rally the city to their own defense. He made a new character that he claimed later to enjoy more thoroughly.

However, he left the game upset. I nearly spent the night on the couch because my fiancee was upset. While I agree that swrushing's point of view is an excellent general rule, it is not always the case. To this day, I adamantly state I made the right call as the DM (other players agreed at the time as well). Given distance and some DMing experience of her own, by wife now agrees with me. Since he ceased playing with us about a year after that campaign ended due to work and other personal issues, I don't know if the player in question did. The moral is that his character didn't die because the player or character made a mistake. His character died because he the player and his character made a decision, and the world reacted in the most reasonable fashion.

Could I have handled it better? Perhaps. Maybe I should have left a way out for him, or provided a way for him to resurrected. In hind sight, I don't think so. A few of my players wanted me to reverse my decision, but I refused and told them to take it in stride and move on. As a result of role-playing out their character's emotions of the issue, Grimosh became fixed in their minds as a great example of what a bad guy should be. They hated him, but having gotten it out of their systems, the were no longer mad at me.

Here's hoping you can pull something similar. Give the PCs the chance to vent their anger where it belongs - on the gnomes. Let them have their satisfaction and recover their item on their own, and then carry them on to the end of the campaign. If you learn from the understandable mistake you've made and build it into what seems to be an otherwise very good grasp on DMing, chances are good that in a few years, you'll all sit down to play, and while you're breaking out the books and paper, one of your players will say, "You remember those stupid gnomes? Jerks! We really gave it to them!" (more probable commentary editted for Eric's G-ma.)

Good luck,
Z
 


ZSutherland said:
... Killing that character was completely my call. I gave him no real chance to escape or survive. He did it knowing there was not a high enough level cleric in the city to raise him from the dead. I didn't feel sorry for one second. ...

Could I have handled it better? Perhaps. Maybe I should have left a way out for him, or provided a way for him to resurrected. In hind sight, I don't think so. ...
I agree with your call. Of course, you could have had the lich polymorph him into a frog or send him to another plane (among other other things; there are lots of options that require that other PCs to do something to get him back) instead of killing him outright but that you didn't is fine as well.
 

On the lich call...

My preference and choice as Gm would have been to do something that provoked more story for the character.

Whisking the character to another plane, where later on in his downtime the lich pops in and begins training his new lackey, or somesuch. comes immediately to mind, althoug i would of course need more specific knowledge of character and player for the particulars.

Its not out of genre for a character to pull some stunt in the face of overwhelming force as a show od defiance. if every heroic character who spat insults in the eye of overwhelming adversaries died right away, those myths and legends would IMO become a lot duller.
 

swrushing said:
if every heroic character who spat insults in the eye of overwhelming adversaries died right away, those myths and legends would IMO become a lot duller.
On the other hand, if every cocky PC who unncecessarily messes with mortal danger can be assured to only get a slap on the wrist for his troubles, the players will quickly learn not to take anyone or anything seriously.

Heh. Playing devil's advocate, here; I don't disagree with swrushing. My point is that:
  • The optimal course of action for the DM depends on the campaign, the character and the circumstances.
  • Further, that, while encouraging heroism is generally a good thing, there are other important considerations as well.
  • Lastly, that tragedy doesn't have to be a bad thing even if it comes at the expense of a PC's life.
 
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ZSutherland said:
To this day, I adamantly state I made the right call as the DM (other players agreed at the time as well). Given distance and some DMing experience of her own, by wife now agrees with me. Since he ceased playing with us about a year after that campaign ended due to work and other personal issues, I don't know if the player in question did. The moral is that his character didn't die because the player or character made a mistake. His character died because he the player and his character made a decision, and the world reacted in the most reasonable fashion.

Could I have handled it better? Perhaps. Maybe I should have left a way out for him, or provided a way for him to resurrected. In hind sight, I don't think so. A few of my players wanted me to reverse my decision, but I refused and told them to take it in stride and move on.
The primary difference is that you didn't come here on the board and ask for feedback on this particular decision. I'm certain if you had, you'd have gotten more-or-less the same responses from more-or-less the same parties as Ambrus. When you come out in public and ask for comments/criticisms, you'd better be prepared for both the good and the bad.

I don't think anyone here (myself included) has said that Ambrus is a bad DM - I don't think he is - for the record, I don't think he's even a cruel DM as he asked in the post title, as I think real cruelty would have been more premeditated. I DO think he showed poor judgement in this instance, and as he asked for opinions, I gave mine. I think, as several others have rather elloquently stated, the problem is that the game ended w/ players pissed off at him, rather than characters pissed off at NPCs; and whenever that happens, I think it's a good idea for the DM to stop for a minute, look at what happened, and fix it. Sadly there aren't that many DMs who are willing to look at something and say "Boy, I blew it" and then fix the issue. Maybe it's ego - I dunno.
 

If there is one thing that is clear from the past several pages of posts, it is that there is no monolithic opinion on the part of Ambrus's players concerning his performance as GM during the episode in question. We might want to refrain from language implying such.
 

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