Am I adding hit-dice to creatures incorrectly?

[Gort]

My party:

18 elf druid.
8 rogue/10 slayer of domiel halfling. (basically a good assassin)
18 human warmage.
14 human paladin cohort to the halfling.

Pretty well built characters, using most of the complete series of splatbooks.

In my last game I ran four advanced Chuuls (33 HD, huge, CR 14 each for a total of CR 18) The paladin and warmage both ended up grappled and paralysed for pretty much the entire fight. I reckon it would've ended up a TPK if the fight wasn't taking place on an asteroid on the astral plane, basically allowing the party to quicken one spell for free every round.

Later, once that horrible fight was finally over (with the death of two Chuuls and the successful retreat of the other two) the party encountered four Truly Horrid Umber Hulks. (20 HD, huge, CR 14 each for a total of CR 18) Since the hulks had a lot fewer hitdice than the chuuls, they failed saves quickly to the warmages prismatic spray spells and ended up insane, on other planes and turned to stone in short order.

These fights were nothing like the same CR, so I'm suspecting that I've missed something when levelling up the Chuuls.

They start with 11 HD and CR 7. I added 22 HD, and since aberration HD are 4 for each increase in CR, that's an extra 5 CR, for a total of 12. This increases their size to huge from large, so that's an extra 1 CR for a total of 13. I also based them on the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) which is one more CR, for the final score of 14.

Due to their massive HD, the DC for their paralysing effect became 37. 10 + half hitdice (16) + con mod (11). The final stat block is:

Str: 34 +12
Dex: 22 +6
Con: 32 +11
Int: 14 +2
Wis: 18 +4
Cha: 5 -3

AC: 27
Touch: 14
HP: 548

Fort: 21
Ref: 16
Will: 24

BAB: 24
Init: 10

Attacks:
2 Claws +34, 4D6+12


There are a bunch of feats that change things slightly (improved toughness, improved natural attack) so if the above look a little wrong that's why.

However, compared to the patheticness of the "truly horrid" umber hulk, I can't help but think I've done something wrong. Can anyone help illuminate what it might be?

 

[szilard]

Compare the monster’s improved attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and any DCs of its special abilities from the HD increase to typical characters of the appropriate level and adjust the CR accordingly.

The big culprit here? +1 CR per 4 HD.

Compare that to levels in Warrior - +1 CR per 2 levels (as a nonassociated class). Aberration HD are near-equivalent to warrior levels. The only substantive distinction is that they have 3/4 BAB.

If you'd given them 11 levels in Warrior rather than 22 aberration HD, the CR (by the book) would have been the same... and they'd have been much weaker.

-Stuart

 

[Thanee]

Might be you are mixing up what CR and EL means. Four CR 14 creatures are an EL 18, which means an appropriate challange for an 18th-level party (at least in theory).

It does *not* mean, that they are equal to an 18th-level party (that would be EL ~22).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Rystil Arden]

The big culprit here? +1 CR per 4 HD.

Compare that to levels in Warrior - +1 CR per 2 levels (as a nonassociated class). Aberration HD are near-equivalent to warrior levels. The only substantive distinction is that they have 3/4 BAB.

If you'd given them 11 levels in Warrior rather than 22 aberration HD, the CR (by the book) would have been the same... and they'd have been much weaker.

-Stuart

Don't forget that the Aberration HD increase the save DCs, whereas Warrior levels would not. I'd say the Aberration HD are stronger for that reason.

 

[frankthedm]

These fights were nothing like the same CR, so I'm suspecting that I've missed something when levelling up the Chuuls...

However, compared to the patheticness of the "truly horrid" umber hulk, I can't help but think I've done something wrong. Can anyone help illuminate what it might be?

Your math was fine. CR is more of an art than a science and the tentacle DC does add a dire monkey wrench into the mix

You only have 3 characters. That really changes things. The cohort came from the rogue's feet so he should not be added in to determine a CR approriate encounter.

None of the party packing freedom of movement? At 18th level the onus is on the party to have some of that. The chuuls have to grab to even have a chance to paralyze on the next round

A small 18th level party hurts baaad with advanced improved grabbers! Normally improved grabbers snag on persone and die as the party concentrates thier attacks. One per body means thats not happening.

Constrict is a very, very strong ability, in my own game i change the damage it does to non lethal damage since the constric is dealt in addition to normal improved grab damage.

No Cleric! Advanced monsters are supposed to deal tons of damage so the cleric is forced to spend every action healing.

Advanced monsters loooooove improved toughness.

A Take you out of the combat ability that scales with HD and Con advancement can be a problem. An energy damage effect can be resisted and rarly scales with advencment in damage. A poison can be stopped dead with all day heroes feast, but freedom of movement is usually a precious buff saved for when really needed. A very High DC paralysis effect can dramaticly affect combat.

BTW, do you have the culs fully typed up? I could give them a home in my advanced monster thread.

 

[Gort]

Might be you are mixing up what CR and EL means. Four CR 14 creatures are an EL 18, which means an appropriate challange for an 18th-level party (at least in theory).

It does *not* mean, that they are equal to an 18th-level party (that would be EL ~22).

Nobody said they were. I was just saying that these two CR 18 encounters were nothing like each other in practice.

None of the party packing freedom of movement? At 18th level the onus is on the party to have some of that. The chuuls have to grab to even have a chance to paralyze on the next round

Actually, both the druid and rogue have rings of freedom of movement, which is the only reason they weren't grabbed and paralysed with the rest. The paladin cohort could have cast it on himself, but neglected to memorise it in favour of something useless

BTW, do you have the culs fully typed up? I could give them a home in my advanced monster thread.

Sure, here they are.

Str: 34 +12
Dex: 22 +6
Con: 32 +11
Int: 14 +2
Wis: 18 +4
Cha: 5 -3

AC: 27
Touch: 14
HP: 548

Fort: 21
Ref: 16
Will: 24

BAB: 24
Init: 10

Attacks:
2 Claws +34, 4D6+12

Feats:
Alertness
Blind-Fight
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Improved Natural Attack (4D6)
Improved Toughness
Weapon Focus (Claw)
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack

Skills:
Hide: 36
Listen: 40
Spot: 40
Swim: 56

The skill DCs at the end need to be broken down, I think. Also, is there a penalty to creatures hide checks based on their size? I couldn't find it, so I just gave them a -8 penalty for being huge.

 

[szilard]

Don't forget that the Aberration HD increase the save DCs, whereas Warrior levels would not. I'd say the Aberration HD are stronger for that reason.

Why wouldn't Warrior levels add to save DCs? The DCs are based off of HD, and character levels come with HD...

-Stuart

 

[Christian]

The skill DCs at the end need to be broken down, I think. Also, is there a penalty to creatures hide checks based on their size? I couldn't find it, so I just gave them a -8 penalty for being huge.

-8 for Huge is correct. The size bonuses and penalties are listed, of all places, under the Hide skill description.

(It doesn't keep doubling after Huge, though, BTW. -12 for Gargantuan and -16 for Colossal.)

 

[Nail]

They start with 11 HD and CR 7. I added 22 HD, ....

MM 3.5e, page 294:
"In general, once you've doubled a creature's CR, you should closely watch any additional increases in its abilities. Adding Hit Dice to a creature improves several of its abilities, and radical increases might not follow this progression indefinitely."

IOW: You progressed 'em too far. (even though the book also says you can take 'em to 33 HD)

 

[frankthedm]

The big culprit here? +1 CR per 4 HD.

Umberhulk used the same advancment ratio. The 4 HD per CR are less of the problem than the small party. Actions are premium when fighting improved grab monsters, one person gets grabbed, other pound the grabber. A whole pack of spring attacking improved grabbers are going to be more of a problem than Encounter levels indicate because the econemy of actions drasticly changes the fight.

BTW, the chuul were missing a feat. I would have made it improved trip, but tripping on the astral plane really is not the 'going prone' type.

Gort's Astral Chuul, 33HD elite lobstrocity
[sblock= Astral Chuul, 33HD elite lobstrocity] Astral Chuul, 33HD elite lobstrocity Huge Aberration (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 33d8 + 363 +33 = 544 HP
Initiative: +10
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 28 (–2 size, +6 Dex, +14 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+44
Attack: Claw +34 melee (4D6+12)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +34 melee (4D6+12)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 3d6+5, improved grab, paralytic tentacles
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to poison
Saves: Fort +21, Ref +16, Will +24
Abilities: Str: 34 Dex: 22 Con: 32 Int: 14 Wis 18 Cha: 5
Skills: Hide: +36, Listen: +40, Spot: +40, Swim: +56
Feats: Alertness [1], Blind-Fight [3], Combat Reflexes [6], Improved Initiative [9], Improved Natural Attack (4D6) [12], Improved Toughness [15], Weapon Focus (Claw) [18], Combat Expertise [21], Dodge [21], Mobility [24], Spring Attack [27], Whirlwind Attack [30] Power Attack [33]
Challenge Rating: 14 {playtesting reccomended]
Treasure: 1/10th coins; 50% goods; standard items
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: Maxed
These titanic chuul are over 20 feet long and weigh 6000 pounds.

Constrict (Ex): On a successful grapple check, a chuul deals 4d6+12 points of damage.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a chuul must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict or on its next turn transfer a grabbed opponent to its tentacles.

Paralytic Tentacles (Ex): A chuul can transfer grabbed victims from a claw to its tentacles as a move action. The tentacles grapple with the same strength as the claw but deal no damage. However, they exude a paralytic secretion. Anyone held in the tentacles must succeed on a DC 37 Fortitude save each round on the chuul’s turn or be paralyzed for 6 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based. While held in the tentacles, paralyzed or not, a victim automatically takes 2d6+6 points of damage each round from the creature’s mandibles.

Amphibious (Ex): Although chuuls are aquatic, they can survive indefinitely on land.
Skills: A chuul has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.[/sblock]