Am I breaking any rules with this tactic?

[Hussar]

This is from a game that I play. I wanted to plan a standard entrance tactic for entering rooms in a hostile environment. I obviously drew inspiration from a SWAT style of entrance. However, how many, if any, rules am I breaking by doing this? See what you think:

"It seems to me that we could learn something from the greatest of fires. Yes, I know, but there's no need to groan like that. What I mean is, there are certain tactical ideas that come from how a fire moves.

"Take a grassfire for instance. A grassfire spreads rapidly, in all directions. It is powerful, but it lacks focus, direction. It burns until there is no more grass to consume and then it burns out. We should not be like the grassfire. Rather we should try to be like the forest fire.

"Have you ever seen a forest fire? No? A truly wonderous sight. Trees burn, higher and higher, until the fire leaps to the next tree, sending those flames higher and higher until it is ready to leap to the next tree. Unlike the grassfire, which simply burns without direction, a forest fire stands its ground first and then moves. When it moves, it moves with sudden speed and then stops to consume before leaping again.

"We should be like that. Thinking about the concealed door in the kobold's lair, I had an idea. We take up positions around the door, with Hazivah in the middle. When Haz opens the door, we leap, like the flame, with myself and Lorna going left and Melisendra and Dhavyn going right. We take in the situation, and hurl weapons at the enemy. Do not charge, let them come to us. Fire your bows or throw spears, and then draw your weapons. The enemy will close and we will have perhaps a second chance to inflict punishment on the enemy before they reach our teeth. With everyone with their backs to the doorway and Haz in the doorway, we all have clear lanes of fire.

"What do you think?"

((In game terms, this is how Korbach's plan works:

Step 1. Haz checks the door for traps and whatnot.
Step 2. The rest of the party readies an action to move through the doorway when it opens.
Step 3. Haz opens the door, triggering the readied actions. Korbach and Lorna go right, Dhavyn and Mel go left leaving Haz in the open doorway.
Step 4. Surprise round. Because the actions in 3 were readied, they occur before the surprise round. If we've done this right, we should have surprise, granting everyone a single standard action (so, 1 attack or 1 move or a charge action or 1 spell).
Step 5. Initiatives - hopefully we can win here too. If you win, ready an action to repel a charger. If someone charges, their AC is a tad lower and you get to strike first. Hopefully you whack them right off the bat.

I wonder if we can get spears somewhere? This would work really well with spears. ))

 

[Caliban]

Step 2) You cannot ready actions outside of combat. (The rule is in the DMG, in the "Adjudicating the Ready Action" section.)

 

[Hussar]

Ah, thanks. Missed that. Grr. Is there no way to prepare for an action so that you can get into position and then make an attack? The way the rules work, there is absolutely no way to make use of a surprise round. Even if the person opens the door and those behind him make partial charges, only those pretty much directly in front of the open door are valid targets. And, any spell caster get's pretty much euchred in this deal because if the fighter types charge, he can't do area of effect spells and, if he stays in the doorway, no one else can charge.



/edit - had a thought

Could you not start combat one round earlier, say when you are opening the door, rather than when you spot the enemy? You assume that the enemy is there and act as if they were present, could that not count as the first round of combat? I appologise if this is covered in the 3.5 DMG, I don't have one here at the moment.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Ah, thanks. Missed that. Grr. Is there no way to prepare for an action so that you can get into position and then make an attack?

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to accomplish, but here's basically how it should work:

The "good guys" are aware of the "bad guys" on the other side of the door, but not vice versa. Therefore, the good guys will get a surprise round upon opening the door. Haz opens the door and all of the good guys (including Haz) get to take a single standard action before both sides roll for initiative. It's their choice what they use that action for, but moving into position (while the bad guys are still flat-footed and probably unable to make attacks of opportunity) might be a pretty good idea.

Once all of the good guys have taken their single standard action in the surprise round, both sides roll initiative. Any good guys who beat the bad guys get to take a full round worth of actions while the bad guys remain flat-footed.

So yes, with a little luck, it's entirely possible for the good guys to "get into position and then make an attack." It's just not guaranteed.

 

[Caliban]

The rule is there so that PC's don't walk around the dungeon with readied actions to attack the first monster they see, or so that monsters don't just sit in the room with readied actions to attack the first PC they see.

What your are describing above is an attempt to get a full round of actions in the surprise round. Surprise rounds are restricted to partial actions to prevent exactly that.

Basically, you can to use your surprise round to get into position, or you can use it to attack with ranged weapons and spells.

At higher levels you can overcome this to a certain degree with magic: Use clairvoyance/clairaudience to check out the room from the other side of the door, and then dimension door or teleport everyone into the room.

 

[Hussar]

The rule is there so that PC's don't walk around the dungeon with readied actions to attack the first monster they see, or so that monsters don't just sit in the room with readied actions to attack the first PC they see.

What your are describing above is an attempt to get a full round of actions in the surprise round. Surprise rounds are restricted to partial actions to prevent exactly that.

Basically, you can to use your surprise round to get into position, or you can use it to attack with ranged weapons and spells.

At higher levels you can overcome this to a certain degree with magic: Use clairvoyance/clairaudience to check out the room from the other side of the door, and then dimension door or teleport everyone into the room.

Yes, I realize that getting a full round of actions is precisely what I'm trying to do. As it stands, getting a single standard action is more or less pointless since all it effectively allows you to do is move. There's very little tactical advantage to getting everyone into the room only to have the enemy wizzie win initiative and blast you with a fireball.

I'm a little confused however. You are saying that with claravoyance and teleport, I can get a full round of actions, but, I can't do it by opening a door. That seems a little strange. Effectively they are the same action. I know that the character's don't know what is on the other side of the door, but, they are going to act in a standard way as if there was something on the other side of the door. Like I said, I'm effectively adding one round to the action.

Round 1 - Characters prepare actions. Opponents take no actions since they are unaware (presumably) of the party.
Round 2 - Thief opens the door,triggering the prepared movement actions. Party moves in. Opponents again take no actions since they are unaware.
Round 3 - surprise round
Round 4 - Initiatives.

By what you are saying, I cannot hear an opponent outside my room and prepare an action to shoot the first thing to come through the door. That doesn't make much sense. Sure, I understand not being able to walk around with a readied action, but since you cannot move and have an action readied, you can't do that anyway.

 

[Graf]

The one sentence explanation is “if players could have their characters ready an action then every character would do so”.
I mean ever bar, every location that people went they would say “I ready an action to attack anyone who attacks me”.

“The merchant suddenly pulls his wand from this belt and…”
“No he doesn’t Crunchwell always has a readied action to sunder any wands that people draw…”

It’s a bit counter intuitive but it keeps the game from bogging down as people constantly modify their readied actions.

 

[Wadash]

Round 2 - Opponents again take no actions since they are unaware.

Hmm, this sounds very much like a surprise round to me, and in fact IMC I would rule it as such, if you believe it is fair, try having the DM do it to your party!

I would run the encounter like this:
Round 1 - Characters prepare actions. Opponents take no actions since they are unaware (presumably) of the party.
Round 2 - Thief opens the door,triggering the prepared movement actions. Party moves in. Opponents again take no actions since they are unaware. (Surprise round)
Round 3 - Initiatives.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, it looks like this won't work according to the rules.

Although, you can't walk around with readied actions anyway, since you can't take any action without losing your readied action. That part doesn't enter into the issue at all.

That kinda blows. I thought this was a pretty decent tactic for dealing with dungeon crawls. It's not without its flaws since a bad guy who is aware of the party could really put the bite on them by readying an action for when someone enters the room/opens the door. Although, strictly by the rules, that doesn't work either since you apparently cannot ready an action outside of combat.

Bad Guy - Gee, I hear those guys in armor trying to be quiet moving around outside my door. I guess I'll stand here and do nothing while they open the door since I can't just point my weapon at the door and let them have it when the door opens.

I'm seeing a house rule in the making.

 

[isoChron]

But if bad guy knows about the enemies in front of his door and the enemies don't know anything about the bad guy, then the bad guy gets a surprise round as soon as the door is opened by his enemies. Could be a nice partial charge or attack or spell.