Am I breaking any rules with this tactic?

[Odysseus]

The plan can work, just your interpretation of how it works within the rules doesn't.

IMO it would be
Step 1.Haz checks door for traps etc
Step 2.Haz opens door. Surprise round. Party use surprise round to move.
Step 3. Intitive.If kobolds get better inititve, plan goes sour. But no plan survives contact with enemy anyway. If party go first. Fire missile weapons , drop them and draw melee weapons. Kobolds charge.
Step 4. Combat ensues.

If you make any house rules giving the party any further advantage. The same will apply to monsters. How would you like it if the monsters did that to you? Espicially at high level. If you let high level characters take a full round action instead of a standard action , that can hurt!

 

[Denaes]

I'm missing something, but people are assuming that just because enemies are known that combat starts.

So long as the opponents are unaware, players can continue to sneak around doing whatever they like. This is how assassains sneak up and prepare for combat (with guns or poison or blades).

So saying that there are people in a building (or so you players think) you can do whatever you like preparing for combat and start combat when you choose. That will most likely be when you kick the door down or after you have the lock picked, etc.

In theory you can go about this without ever entering combat. you could sneak in, steal their weapons, item, whatever, sneak around upstairs... if you're good at sneaking. So long as you're not seen, the opponent isn't aware of you, you're not in combat until you say so.

Just be careful not to alert opponents, because if they discover you, you just blew your surprise round.

 

[andargor]

Well, in 1e and 2e we'd spend our time listening at doors before entering (elves were good at this). We still do it in 3e. So if you pass a Listen check, there's no reason you should not get a surprise round as you bash the door down.

Andargor

 

[Hussar]

Getting the surprise round is not really a problem. Like you say, listening at the door/kicking it down works fine.

Just as a point, I am not giving the party a full round of actions. I'm giving them two standard actions instead of the usual one for the surprise round. There is a difference. At no point could the party make a full attack, for example. You could move and make a single attack, but, then again, a partial charge works that way anyway. Because they only get standard actions, there are many things that they can't do.

Personally, I have no problems with the bad guys being able to do this. I do have a problem depending on the bad guys, being organized enough to do this, but that's a separate issue.

Realistically, the only advantage the party is gaining here is a tactical one. They are gaining an extra move. Note, this can go very sour as well. I've nicely grouped everyone together with no cover. An enemy mage or a group of archers at the ready are going to munch me badly.

Like was said, there's no mechanical way to guarantee the second standard action. By the rules, I have to gamble that the bad guys react slower than my initiative and I can get my full action in before their initiative count. Odysseus has the right of it.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Just as a point, I am not giving the party a full round of actions. I'm giving them two standard actions instead of the usual one for the surprise round. There is a difference.

Actually, what you're trying to do is give the party two surprise rounds. That doesn't make sense at all. Once the two sides are aware, then there's no surprise round. You can't break into the room and then expect another surprise round. Your surprise round was spent breaking in. Keep in mind that having at least two standard actions, in many cases three, is way too unbalancing. It's the primary reason haste was broken in 3.0.

Houserule suggestion
If you really want to try to make this a part of your game, at most I would suggest giving the group with surprise an initiative bonus, probably only +2 or maybe as high as +4, as a circumstance bonus. This bonus would increase your group's chance for acting first and helps increase the surprise effect.

 

[CAFRedblade]

Perhaps with the aid of a thunderstone(flashbang device) it would give you that extra round
to set up as most of the enemy would then be attempting to recover(if they failed their saves)
Have the thief open the door and toss a flashbang in at the same time. Then the rest of the party moves into position within the room.

Just my Two Cents

 

[Denaes]

Actually, what you're trying to do is give the party two surprise rounds. That doesn't make sense at all. Once the two sides are aware, then there's no surprise round. You can't break into the room and then expect another surprise round. Your surprise round was spent breaking in. Keep in mind that having at least two standard actions, in many cases three, is way too unbalancing. It's the primary reason haste was broken in 3.0.

Houserule suggestion
If you really want to try to make this a part of your game, at most I would suggest giving the group with surprise an initiative bonus, probably only +2 or maybe as high as +4, as a circumstance bonus. This bonus would increase your group's chance for acting first and helps increase the surprise effect.

I agree. 1 surprise is all you need.

Lets take Modern for example on how this goes:

1. sneak up to drug house. You know the dealers are armed and dangerous killers.
2. Kick in the door, guns out, taking in the situation and scanning whats going on.
3. The dealers are on the couch watching TV or doing drugs. They might spend a round fumbling for their weapons or figuring out what to do and running or just giving up in confusion.

One thing I've seen GMs abuse too much is being combat ready. If said enemies in said house had no clue you're comming and you caught them unaware, then they're not ready. they're not in full combat armour standing in the room with their swords drawn waiting for someone to break in.

I would practically guarantee that after the suprise round, the opponents arn't able to do much of anything constructive unless they're golems or the GM is just being a jerk. Even monsters sit down and snooze and do something other than sitting to wait for combat.

I'd say chances are the first round of combat is the opponents going for cover and/or their weapons. They might have daggers on themselves, but it's severely doubful they're in meaningful armour and have swords or bows at their side while they're relaxing.

 

[Nim]

I'd say chances are the first round of combat is the opponents going for cover and/or their weapons. They might have daggers on themselves, but it's severely doubful they're in meaningful armour and have swords or bows at their side while they're relaxing.

Depends a lot on context, of course. A bunch of soldiers on duty in a guardroom may be distracted - eating, playing cards, whathaveyou - but they're probably in their armor (light or medium armor; no one stands guard in heavy armor unless they're under siege) and have weapons near to hand. They'll probably require one round (stand and pick up weapon leaning against table, or stand and move into place while drawing weapon) to be combat-ready. Shields might take a little longer. The same squad of soldiers off duty in their barracks are in a much different situation, and probably will only be able to grab small sidearms (daggers, maybe a shortsword) unless they're near where ever their weapons are stored.

 

[Hussar]

Actually, what you're trying to do is give the party two surprise rounds. That doesn't make sense at all. Once the two sides are aware, then there's no surprise round. You can't break into the room and then expect another surprise round. Your surprise round was spent breaking in. Keep in mind that having at least two standard actions, in many cases three, is way too unbalancing. It's the primary reason haste was broken in 3.0.

Houserule suggestion
If you really want to try to make this a part of your game, at most I would suggest giving the group with surprise an initiative bonus, probably only +2 or maybe as high as +4, as a circumstance bonus. This bonus would increase your group's chance for acting first and helps increase the surprise effect.

Effectively, yes, I am trying to get two surprise rounds. I'll agree with that.

However, there is a bit of a difference again. Since the first round is a Readied Action, then you cannot change that action without losing it. In other words, it is not quite as broken as you make it out to be. Because the readied action must be stated beforehand, it's not like the party wizard could cast two spells. I suppose you could toss the fireball on a readied action as soon as the door is open, but, that's pretty dangerous as well.

However, thinking about it, I do see what you are talking about. If I can ready an action to move through the door when it's open, why not ready an action to toss in a spell, then use the surprise round to toss a second spell. Ok, I'll buy that. That makes sense. I actually hadn't thought of that.

How's this for an alternative?

Players entering the room make a Hide check at -20, similar to if they were sniping. If no one spots them entering the room, then they get their surprise round afterwards. That makes a little more sense since, if the opponents fail to see the party, then they cannot take any actions anyway. The thunderstones idea is a good one as well.

Hrm, invisiblity or blink could be a real bonus to this tactic as well. Of course, getting an entire party to blink could be tricky.

 

[Denaes]

Depends a lot on context, of course. A bunch of soldiers on duty in a guardroom may be distracted - eating, playing cards, whathaveyou - but they're probably in their armor (light or medium armor; no one stands guard in heavy armor unless they're under siege) and have weapons near to hand. They'll probably require one round (stand and pick up weapon leaning against table, or stand and move into place while drawing weapon) to be combat-ready. Shields might take a little longer. The same squad of soldiers off duty in their barracks are in a much different situation, and probably will only be able to grab small sidearms (daggers, maybe a shortsword) unless they're near where ever their weapons are stored.

True that. It's all based on sitation.

Based on my experience with multiple GMs, own inclinations (I have to catch myself at times) and RPG.Net and other forums, it seems that like video games, it's common for a GM to just play up even surprised monsters/opponents as pretty much combat ready.

I agree that soldiers on duty would have weapons close and be armed within a full round of their first action. But many GMs start them off armed or grabbing their weapons as a free action and thats frustrating.

Even attentive guards on duty arn't "at the ready" for hours straight. I don't think it's humanly possible to keep your attention on nothing for hours at a time... just waiting.

Also I was being a bit over generalistic in my post. I was taking the assumption that it was just someone at home relaxed. There are other situations as well, like guards playing cards, a security guard at a bank, etc. Non of them are at the ready unless their boss is around, they have reason to believe something is up or they're actively searching/doing something.