D&D 4E Am I crazy? I've just gotten a hankering to play 4e again...

[Garthanos]

they took at-will cantrips and made them better.

how? I think the 4e non-combat cantrips and psionic cantrips too are fun and better than using the same resource and competing with at-will attack powers.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think it wouldn't be too hard to mechanically convert a 4e class into a 5e class or vice versa, or convert a 4e monster into a 5e monster.

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First problem is that HP don't scale the same, and 4e character lacks HD.
Second problem is that damage scales a bit differently in 4e than 5e.
Third problem is that attributes scale from 1 to 30 more than they do in 5e from 1 to 20.
Forth problem is "attack vs fortitude" vs "force con save", and FRW defences vs attribute saves.
Fifth problem is magic item scaling differences, and attunement vs daily powers+christmas tree.
Sixth problem is 1/2 level bonus vs proficiency bonus.
Seventh problem is the +2-3 attack bonus on weapons.
Eighth problem is the OA/Reaction mechanics and expected OA triggers are different.

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None of those look really hard to work around.

The characters will play a little bit differently than 5e characters would; for example, the Ranger wouldn't suck.

Similarly, mechanically converting 4e monsters into 5e monsters doesn't look hard. You'd start with stripping out level scaling on a bunch of stuff.

Monsters are reasonably straightforward because 'scaling' is meaningless, you create a monster of a given level and it has whatever numbers are appropriate for a monster of that difficulty. Same with monster's powers (attacks) you just give them the expected damage outputs and maybe adjust some of the effects as-needed. It isn't always trivial in terms of getting a neat tactical 'shtick' to come together in a 5e implementation, but then again 5e is much less tactically detailed, so you may be able to simply describe what you want and provide a few supporting numbers/conditions.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

how? I think the 4e non-combat cantrips and psionic cantrips too are fun and better than using the same resource and competing with at-will attack powers.

Yeah, don't get me started on all that. AEDU is just really nice. Here's the thing, if you are going to play with 4e monsters and classes, why not just play 4e? I think there are a few ideas that 5e has where they did refine some things, like calling certain things 'legendary actions' or 'lair actions' or whatever. That is mostly just presentation though.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I usually decrease all Defenses by 2 for the monsters and half-hp. Makes the combat faster.

...unless you also cut out (slightly less than) half the monster's defenses, high-level fights are going to quickly become impossible.

I also really don't get why 5e's Proficiency bonus is cool, when it's literally quarter-level, but 4e's half-level bonus isn't?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

...unless you also cut out (slightly less than) half the monster's defenses, high-level fights are going to quickly become impossible.

I also really don't get why 5e's Proficiency bonus is cool, when it's literally quarter-level, but 4e's half-level bonus isn't?

I usually dont go to high levels, so I would not know. I got no interest for epic level adventures.

And as for proficiency, its because it delay a little the time where your players start rolling 1d20 + 15 or so, making low level adventuring's sweetspot last a little longer. This means that at level 5-6 I can still challenge them with low-ish level mobs.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

...unless you also cut out (slightly less than) half the monster's defenses, high-level fights are going to quickly become impossible.

I also really don't get why 5e's Proficiency bonus is cool, when it's literally quarter-level, but 4e's half-level bonus isn't?

Yeah, none of that ever made any sense to me either. EVERY SINGLE D&D has scaling. Its literally the single most basic design element of D&D. You could remove almost everything else and if levels and scaling by level are there, its still kin to D&D.

In essence what 5e does is, by only mildly scaling defenses (most of them) it pushes more of the burden off onto damage to demonstrate 'superiority' over lower leveled opponents.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I usually dont go to high levels, so I would not know. I got no interest for epic level adventures.

And as for proficiency, its because it delay a little the time where your players start rolling 1d20 + 15 or so, making low level adventuring's sweetspot last a little longer. This means that at level 5-6 I can still challenge them with low-ish level mobs.

It doesn't seem to REALLY work though. That is, you can do it, but having 25 orcs with hitpoints and all to track is really not that interesting. I really welcomed minions, they filled that niche quite well.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Question to those who have lots of experience with 4e:

I love tactical combat, but I don't want it to take forever. And I generally prefer my D&D simple (Original/Basic/Expert/Classic), with few options and nothing that looks like a "build" or "char-op." I really, really want to like 4e for its combat system, but so much of what I hear about the way it plays turns me off.

Given that, how would the following impact a typical campaign?—
• I don't want to fiddle too much with hp totals and damage, but how about simply having everything always cause maximum damage instead of rolling? This seems comparable to halving hp, but easier to deal with.
• Are the essentials classes simple enough that an "essentials only" campaign would largely eliminate high-level "power bloat" and option paralysis?
• Is there a certain cutoff level beyond which the selection of powers grows especially unwieldy? Level 10? Level 20? (As it stands, I already cap my OD&D campaigns at 10th level for human characters, since the level limits for demi-humans are in the 4th to 8th range. I have no problem at all with a campaign that only goes up to level 10.)

 

[loverdrive]

• Are the essentials classes simple enough that an "essentials only" campaign would largely eliminate high-level "power bloat" and option paralysis?

There are 11 different things that a lvl 1 Fighter can do on their turn... So, I guess not.

If you want a simple, yet tactical system, I'd suggest look at Strike! (just don't look at the artwork, it's horrendous). It's basically 4E, but with less rules and no +30 modifiers.

 

[Teemu]

Question to those who have lots of experience with 4e:

I love tactical combat, but I don't want it to take forever. And I generally prefer my D&D simple (Original/Basic/Expert/Classic), with few options and nothing that looks like a "build" or "char-op." I really, really want to like 4e for its combat system, but so much of what I hear about the way it plays turns me off.

Given that, how would the following impact a typical campaign?—
• I don't want to fiddle too much with hp totals and damage, but how about simply having everything always cause maximum damage instead of rolling? This seems comparable to halving hp, but easier to deal with.
• Are the essentials classes simple enough that an "essentials only" campaign would largely eliminate high-level "power bloat" and option paralysis?
• Is there a certain cutoff level beyond which the selection of powers grows especially unwieldy? Level 10? Level 20? (As it stands, I already cap my OD&D campaigns at 10th level for human characters, since the level limits for demi-humans are in the 4th to 8th range. I have no problem at all with a campaign that only goes up to level 10.)

Average damage would probably work better. Maximum damage is what critical hits are in 4e, although magic weapons and implements add damage die on crits (1 die per plus). The hp issue isn't really an issue at all if you play with MM3, Monster Vault, and MV: Threats to Nentir Vale creatures.

Essentials classes are not made equal in complexity. Essentials wizards and clerics are just as complex as the other classes, but the martial classes are simpler.

I'd say starting at level 11 (so paragon tier) the complexity amps up. You get more powers and feats and magic items, and at that point it gets more complicated. Staying at levels 1-10 is a good choice and still offers a full 4e experience.

Another way to reduce complexity and options is to use the inherent bonuses variant from the Dark Sun Campaign Setting. Basically you cut down the number of magic items by half, so a party of 5 PCs gets two items per level instead of four.

Also, if the players never take situational bonus feats, the game will run faster. Same with handing out magic items -- avoid the situational stuff, and it's an easier game to play.