Am I making this monster too deadly?

[takyris]

Hey all,

First off, hopefully this is the right area -- I'm playing a d20 Past (ish) game set in a historical fantasy setting. My players are using d20 Modern, Urban Arcana (minus the tech), d20 Past, and a few d20 Future feats and Advanced Classes (the ones that aren't tech-dependent). So basically, I'm putting them in a D&D-like world with d20 Modern classes, which, from what I've heard, immediately means that you should add about +1 or +2 to the average monster CR right off the bat, unless you're also weakening monsters.

In addition, I'm using a house rule involving size. My large monsters aren't going to have enormous Strength or Con scores. Instead, for every size category above Medium, a monster gains +3 hit points per hit die, +3 on all damage rolls, +3 to MDT, +3 on Fort saves against Poison or Disease, and +8 on any Strength check (including bull-rush stuff), Strength-based skill check, or Grapple check (instead of the usual +4 that a larger creature gets). I've done this so that I can have a large monster with a low or average strength -- such a monster wouldn't hit often, but when it did, the damage would still be heavy enough to force a Massive Damage save. (For example, I have an ogre that attacks at only +1 melee but hits for 2d8+4 damage.)

So, to be honest, I've changed enough stuff that I'm not entirely sure how powerful something is going to turn out to be. I've got a monster -- my homebrewed version of a wyvern, which is the first and weakest monster in a progressive series of draconic monsters I'm going to be slinging their way -- that I'd like to run by folks to get an idea of the possible CR. Bear in mind that this is a d20 Modern group, not a D&D group, so they'll be a few levels behind in magical ability and magic-level for equipment.

Thanks!

Wyvern:
Large Dragon (Unguided*)
HD: 6d12 +6 Con +18 size (63 hp)
MDT: 19 (13 Con, +3 Size, +3 Improved DT)
Init: -1 (-1 Dex)
Speed: 20, fly 60 (poor)
Defense: 14 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 8, flat 14
BAB/GRP: +6/+12
Attack: (+6 BAB -2 Str -1 size) Sting +3 melee (1d6+1 + 3d6 energy) or Bite +3 melee (2d8+1)
Full Attack: Sting +3 melee (1d6+1 + 3d6 energy), Bite -2 melee (2d8+1), 2 talons -2 melee (2d6+1)
Face/Reach: 10/10
SA: Stinger energy, improved grab
SQ: Low-light vision, Dragon Qualities
Saves: F+6(+3 size), R+4, W+5
Abil: Str7, Dex9, Con13, Int2, Wis11, Cha4
Skills: Listen+13, Navigate+9, Spot+13, Survival+9(+4 when tracking)
Feats: Power Attack**, Improved Damage Threshold(bonus), Cleave, Sunder
CR: ???

* A guided dragon is a dragon possessed by the mind of outsider, which makes it stronger, faster, far more intelligent, and capable of spellcasting. An unguided dragon is simply an incredibly powerful beast, no more intelligent than a wolf or a bear.

** Wyverns can take Power Attack despite not qualifying for it due to their low Strength score.

Dragon Qualities in this game
Low-light vision
The bonus feat "Improved Damage Threshold"
+4 Racial Bonus to Spot, Listen, and Track checks


Appearance: A wyvern is a creature of nightmares, standing twelve feet tall on legs with cruelly hooked talons and lashing the air with a scorpion-like stinger that glows and crackles in all the colors of the rainbow. Its scales are a dull brown, and its wings are vaguely translucent. It moves with a clumsy, awkward gait.

Tactics: The wyvern is an unintelligent beast. It swoops down and attacks its prey with reckless abandon, attacking quickly and savagely to destroy opponents before they can react.

Stinger Energy: Chaotic energy swirls around a wyvern’s tail. If it hits, roll 1d6 to determine what kind of damage is delivered as bonus energy damage that round:

1: No bonus damage, but a Dispel check at +12 is made against all effects on the character, and any damage reduction that is magical in origin is lowered by 3d6. It returns at a rate of 1 point per hour.
2: Fire
3: Electricity
4: Acid
5: Cold
6: Sonic

Improved Grab: If the wyvern hits with a bite attack, it may attempt to start a grapple as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If it succeeds, it either continues to bite (doing bite damage automatically each round) or transfers the victim to its tail (does 2d6+1 constriction damage each round as well as bonus damage from the stinger). In either case, it will use normal grappling tactics unless it is struck for damage by an ally of the grappled victim, in which case it will take the -20 to not be considered grappling.

So there you go... the stinger does an average of 15 damage a hit, the bite can easily trigger a massive damage save, and the talons are nasty in their own right. On the other hand, even a d20 Modern group is going to have a little magic at some point, and it's possible that their Defenses could be high enough to make this guy miss almost all the time.

Thoughts? What CR would you put this at? Right now, I'm thinking that I'd have the players encounter this as a solo-monster fight that was a good, solid, rest-afterward but little-chance-of-TPK adventure at:

Level 6 if they had fair warning, time to plan an ambush, and possibly help
Level 7 if they had fair warning and possibly help
Level 8 if they had fair warning
Level 9 if they had less than ideal circumstances (got ambushed by it, fought it in bad terrain for them)

How does that sound?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I'm putting them in a D&D-like world with d20 Modern classes, which, from what I've heard, immediately means that you should add about +1 or +2 to the average monster CR right off the bat, unless you're also weakening monsters.

Alas, it's never so easy. DnD monsters tend to have great attack bonuses but terrible ACs compared to DnD characters, but Modern characters tend to have better Defense compared to attack bonuses (IME). Save DCs often need to be lowered (no cloak of resistance ... or at least not as good a cloak ... and lower save bonuses for base classes as well). While Modern characters can sometimes dish out damage, they don't take it well, especially if they have to make multiple saves vs massive damage. Anyone can roll a "1" and drop instantly.

If casting spells is required to beat the monster, you need to boost the CR by at least 3 (you can't cast spells in Modern until 4th-level, barring special races or Urban Arcana feats).

You know your players better than we do. What level are they, and what do their Fortitude saves and Defense values look like? (In fact, if you give us their level, we can figure out "average" values.)

1: No bonus damage, but a Dispel check at +12 is made against all effects on the character, and any damage reduction that is magical in origin is lowered by 3d6. It returns at a rate of 1 point per hour.

Why a random roll? Is this just to remove stoneskin? (I didn't think it was a D20 Modern spell.) Unless all the players have magic weapons, you should probably reduce DR across the board anyway (eg 3.5 monster-style).

On the other hand, even a d20 Modern group is going to have a little magic at some point

This monster is for your campaign, and obviously your players are using magic, but I disagree with this statement. (I've personally been in three Modern campaigns that didn't use magic compared to one that did, and I also missed out on one that didn't use magic and on one that did. So IME that's 2 non-FX campaigns compared to 1 FX campaign.)

 

[takyris]

Hey, Psi -- thanks for the feedback!

While Modern characters can sometimes dish out damage, they don't take it well, especially if they have to make multiple saves vs massive damage. Anyone can roll a "1" and drop instantly.

Cut that down, since that's a key issue. I'm hoping that the lower attack bonus will make the wyvern miss most of the time, and when he does hit, it's spectacular, so that the heroes quickly learn that ranged weapons or Fast heroes are the way to deal with it.

If casting spells is required to beat the monster, you need to boost the CR by at least 3 (you can't cast spells in Modern until 4th-level, barring special races or Urban Arcana feats).

I figure that spells will help here, but with a Defense of 14 and no damage reduction, I don't see spells (or magic weapons) as a necessity -- merely a benefit.

You know your players better than we do. What level are they, and what do their Fortitude saves and Defense values look like? (In fact, if you give us their level, we can figure out "average" values.)

This isn't for the present. This is for the future -- I'm trying to plan ahead.

Right now they're first level -- they're fighting ordinary bandits and thugs in the tavern. By third level, they'll see their first monster, a gryffon (that resembles the D&D creature only in name -- it's actually an undead eagle possessed by a parasite that looks like a hermit crap, with eyestalks protruding from the eagle's dead eyes and a pair of pincer claws coming from the chest), and that's a small creature that only does 1d4-2 damage per hit (with a disease power and a grapple for 4d4 -- so don't let it hug your face).

I'm not so much trying to figure out if this monster is too powerful (although that's what I wrote, so dummy me) as to figure out when it'll be appropriate to put it in the PCs' way. Right now, the creature has so many attacks that even with bad attack bonuses, I see it as risking a TPK on a 4th or 5th-level party. 6th (when the party's priest will be casting 2nd-level spells as a Dedicated 3/Acolyte 3, most likely, and the party's scholar will be a Smart3/Mage3) seems like the first point where it's really possible for them to beat this thing. Not specifically with magic, but just the general power level -- a tank might have Weapon Specialization and heavy armor, a light-warrior might have some damage-bonus abilities and a high Defense even without armor, and the people heading for spellcasting will be able to do a little damage that way.

Why a random roll? Is this just to remove stoneskin? (I didn't think it was a D20 Modern spell.) Unless all the players have magic weapons, you should probably reduce DR across the board anyway (eg 3.5 monster-style).

One character is aiming for Thrasher, which offers magical DR for a player. This would remove that. And the wyvern itself doesn't have DR, so the question of magical weapons for party members is, well, not moot, since a bonus of +1 to hit and to damage could be important, but it's less of a factor here.

(But that's not the primary reason for having this abiility -- as the draconic monsters get more powerful, this antimagic gets more powerful as well, which will tie in to the big overarching story of the world. In fact, 9 times out of 10, this attack would have no effect on a PC getting hit in this game. Which is good, because that lowers the average damage from the stinger.)

This monster is for your campaign, and obviously your players are using magic, but I disagree with this statement.

Good point. Sloppy writing on my part. In my campaign, magic will be an option as per Urban Arcana rules. So, assuming that they're at the Urban Arcana level of power... at what level does this thing drop from Danger-of-TPK to Exciting-but-Killable?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Cut that down, since that's a key issue. I'm hoping that the lower attack bonus will make the wyvern miss most of the time, and when he does hit, it's spectacular, so that the heroes quickly learn that ranged weapons or Fast heroes are the way to deal with it.

Wyvern:
Large Dragon (Unguided*)
HD: 6d12 +6 Con +18 size (63 hp)
MDT: 19 (13 Con, +3 Size, +3 Improved DT)
Init: -1 (-1 Dex)
Speed: 20, fly 60 (poor)
Defense: 14 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 8, flat 14
BAB/GRP: +6/+12
Attack: (+6 BAB -2 Str -1 size) Sting +3 melee (1d6+1 + 3d6 energy) or Bite +3 melee (2d8+1)
Full Attack: Sting +3 melee (1d6+1 + 3d6 energy), Bite -2 melee (2d8+1), 2 talons -2 melee (2d6+1)
Face/Reach: 10/10
SA: Stinger energy, improved grab
SQ: Low-light vision, Dragon Qualities
Saves: F+6(+3 size), R+4, W+5
Abil: Str7, Dex9, Con13, Int2, Wis11, Cha4
Skills: Listen+13, Navigate+9, Spot+13, Survival+9(+4 when tracking)
Feats: Power Attack**, Improved Damage Threshold(bonus), Cleave, Sunder
CR: ???

On to the numbers. (I take it this is copied mostly from the DnD monster?) And it's supposed to take on a 6th-level or so party.

Ok, it is extremely unlikely to hit such players. Even a Charismatic Hero 4 with light armor (the one that gives a +2 bonus) and Dex +1 will have a Defense of 14 ... they get hit half the time, and they're one of the weakest Defense characters you can build.

My suggestion, honestly, is a bit of a redesign. I'll give you an example, from Sean K Reynolds' site. Suppose you have a CR 5 monster. It has lame hit points but has a breath weapon doing 10d6 damage (hence the CR of 5). If the party gets initiative, it goes down fast, and isn't worth its CR. But if it goes first, it is worth its CR (possibly more, as it might be able to blast the party twice).

Your monster example is similar. If it never rolls high (it gets no action points either, of course), it won't be worth its CR, but if it does hit... This can be frustrating from your end of the screen. While you're not trying to rip your players to shreds, you do want something nasty to happen to them, and if you keep missing ...

My suggestion is to increase the attack bonus but reduce the damage bonus. So first, either drop its size (Large and 7 Strength?) and give it Weapon Finesse. Naturally, reducing the size reduces the attack penalty (and may give it a bonus).

Where are the damage bonuses coming from? (How does it do 2d8+1 damage with a Strength modifier of -2?)

Of course, you'll want to leave all those special attacks in, as that's what makes this beast cool.

The Defense may or may not be a big deal. It flies, but has to get into melee (so anyone can hit it). You'll quickly find its vulnerable to things like Burst Fire (you can get that by 6th-level, but your party might not take it) or things like Inspiration (that +2 is so sweet, and, of course, doesn't cost action points). Even with its relatively high hit points, it runs the risk of getting shredded. My suggestion is to reduce whatever CR you think it should have by 1 point because of the low Defense (if the party can hit it more than half the time, that reduces the CR, and if they can hit it less than half the time, that increases the CR.)

 

[takyris]

On to the numbers. (I take it this is copied mostly from the DnD monster?) And it's supposed to take on a 6th-level or so party.

Actually, I copied its natural weapon base damage and the dragon stats (d12 hit dice, 8+int skill points, all good saves), and that's about it. It's pretty much a redesign based on the idea of a wyvern.

Ok, it is extremely unlikely to hit such players. Even a Charismatic Hero 4 with light armor (the one that gives a +2 bonus) and Dex +1 will have a Defense of 14 ... they get hit half the time, and they're one of the weakest Defense characters you can build.

Good point -- but it gets a sting, a bite, and two talons on a full-round attack. If any one of these attacks hits, it's a potential massive damage check. (Maybe not the talons on their own, but 2d6+1 gets ugly fast with a power attack, and with four attacks per round, I'm rolling a 20 at some point.)

My suggestion, honestly, is a bit of a redesign. I'll give you an example, from Sean K Reynolds' site. Suppose you have a CR 5 monster. It has lame hit points but has a breath weapon doing 10d6 damage (hence the CR of 5). If the party gets initiative, it goes down fast, and isn't worth its CR. But if it goes first, it is worth its CR (possibly more, as it might be able to blast the party twice).

I can see your analogy. In D&D, I'd totally buy it. Have you had folks without firearms doing 63 points damage in a single round in d20 Modern, though?

Your monster example is similar. If it never rolls high (it gets no action points either, of course), it won't be worth its CR, but if it does hit... This can be frustrating from your end of the screen. While you're not trying to rip your players to shreds, you do want something nasty to happen to them, and if you keep missing ...

Actually, that differs from my philosophy a bit at this point. I'm much more likely to show it biting a foot-soldier in half with one snap of its jaws to let the players know what's going to happen if it does hit.

And philosophically, it's what I'm trying at this point -- still respectable damage, but lowering the chance to hit, and lowering the Defense to stay in line with d20 Modern attack bonuses.

Large and 7 Strength?

[quote[Where are the damage bonuses coming from? (How does it do 2d8+1 damage with a Strength modifier of -2?)[/quote]

These are accounted for in the notes in my first post. I'm trying out new rules on how size changes stuff. Instead of giving the monster a massive Strength score, I'm giving a Strength score that reflects its coordination and athleticism and adding flat damage bonuses due to size. To quote myself:

In addition, I'm using a house rule involving size. My large monsters aren't going to have enormous Strength or Con scores. Instead, for every size category above Medium, a monster gains +3 hit points per hit die, +3 on all damage rolls, +3 to MDT, +3 on Fort saves against Poison or Disease, and +8 on any Strength check (including bull-rush stuff), Strength-based skill check, or Grapple check (instead of the usual +4 that a larger creature gets). I've done this so that I can have a large monster with a low or average strength -- such a monster wouldn't hit often, but when it did, the damage would still be heavy enough to force a Massive Damage save. (For example, I have an ogre that attacks at only +1 melee but hits for 2d8+4 damage.)

Thus, the Wyvern's talons do 2d6 -2 Strength +3 Size = 2d6+1.

I'm actually, y'know, using the d20 System's size bonus.

Really, I did get the numbers right. The wyvern in my world is clumsy and uncoordinated and still massively unpleasant if it hits you.

(There are two templates that might apply to the Wyvern -- the Hydra template, and the Guided template. Under the Hydra template, it gains +4 Strength and Dexterity, as well as Multiattack. Under the Guided template, it gains more Strength and Dexterity, much higher mental scores, and spellcasting ability -- it has been possessed by an outsider spirit. The base wyvern needs to be a little weak so that the Hydra-form wyvern, with its improved coordination and its six freakin' bite attacks, will merely be challenging intstead of stupidly dangerous.)

The Defense may or may not be a big deal. It flies, but has to get into melee (so anyone can hit it). You'll quickly find its vulnerable to things like Burst Fire (you can get that by 6th-level, but your party might not take it) or things like Inspiration (that +2 is so sweet, and, of course, doesn't cost action points). Even with its relatively high hit points, it runs the risk of getting shredded. My suggestion is to reduce whatever CR you think it should have by 1 point because of the low Defense (if the party can hit it more than half the time, that reduces the CR, and if they can hit it less than half the time, that increases the CR.)

Thanks for the suggestions. While I did offer justitications for why I did what I did, I am thinking about what you said. I'm hoping that the wyvern's reach -- and its ability to make people come to it -- results in a few AoOs. I may also swap out Sunder for Flyby attack, which is more fun anyway, and lets it bite or sting as it goes by... that all alone means that it only gets into a melee when it wants to, and heck, with improved grab, it can grab somebody with a bite and fly off with him...

Thanks again, Psi. I really appreciate your thoughts.