Am I the Only One Totally Apathetic About Power Sources?

[WalterKovacs]

The X Power books have been expanding the idea of what power sources mean.

Martial was pretty well defined right out of the gate, being the most weapon focused of groups. Arcane are getting familiars, and they already had wands (wands, as an implement, allows ANY arcane caster to use the power inside, even if it's for another class). Divine had both the channel divinity schtick, and they also have an interesting implement, in that holy symbols are the one implement they don't have to actually wield.

Whether flavor dictates power or power dictates flavor is questionable. Some are probably designed top down and others bottom up. However, unlike allignment there are actually multiple feats and powers that reference power source. Sure, power source is, for the most part, just another keyword, as is allignment. Power source is referenced more often though.

There are mechanical differences in the power sources (if only in terms of "there are feats that require you have X power source in order to take it" and "effects that only apply to powers with source Y"), and there are some mechanical features (skill lists and stat choices are influenced by power source; Primal has transformation powers [the shaman modifies his spirit, while the rest modify themselves] for all the classes, not just the specific roles).

 

[Runestar]

If you want the power sources to mean something, then make it so. You don't need the permission from the designers (game rules) to develop the power sources in whatever manner you would like.

And the fact that we need to come up with something of our own does indeed mean that at the moment, power sources don't really account for much. Mechanics-wise, it doesn't really matter if a power is from the martial or primal power source. They both still work the same.

I am not quite sure why some people seem to be having multi-orgasmic thrill rides when they hear of a particular power source being released. For instance, I don't quite see the need for a psychic power source, if existing wizard powers would suffice (simply replace arcane with the appropriate key-word).

Or if you rework the powers to give it a more "psi" feel, that is something that is wholly independent of power source, in that it would still work that way with or without a power source.

At the moment, they seem like they have the potential to be so much more, just that wotc is not doing anything yet, for whatever reason remains their own.

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

So I'm going to crawl tentatively out onto this limb here and disagree that the sources are pointless from a purely mechanical basis. Power Sources lean toward different things; there are no monopolies, but there are distinct tendencies. Examples:

Arcane - The Arcane base stats are Int and Cha. You need one of these for pretty much any arcane class. Arcane is still your main choice for big AoEs and teleportation as well as ongoing damage. It also gives you the most options for punching through resistances. The Sustain mechanic is almost completely confined to Arcane. Most of its component classes minor in Controller.

Divine - The Divine base stats are Wis and probably Str, though that's arguable. It is more discriminatory in its AoEs than Arcane, but is limited in its damage types. Divine is possibly the strongest when it comes to buffs/debuffs and most of its component classes minor in Leader, doling out Temp HP if nothing else.

Primal - The Primal base stats are Wis and Con, but again I'm willing to give a little on that second one. Outside of the sorcerer, the primal classes require the most significant bookkeeping (though this could be a function of PHB2) and offer the most Dailies that last for the rest of the encounter. IMHO, the Primal classes minor in Defender.

Martial - Strength. Done. Then everything else is about equal afterward. Martial classes require much less bookkeeping, being primarily "effect and move on" powers. Martial also has a bit of an edge on knocking prone, I think, but not much. It used to be that you had the new guy play the fighter. Now you have him play Martial.. except perhaps the Warlord. Martial classes minor in Striker.

$0.02 63 more will get you a donut.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

I would also like to see more opportunities for power source to influence mechanics. Maybe monsters that rest or are vulnerable to certain power sources.

I'd also like to see monster attacks use power sources.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Yes, I did. In my campaign, I mixed primordials and primal spirits together. The true primal spirits became the gods (carrock (the phoenix) became Pelor, Genru (the frost wolf) became the raven queen) and the "primordials" (Zehir, tharizdun) were those that resisted the change, becoming powerful and twisted.

With their return, the practitioners of the old ways (druids, shamans, etc..) began to manifest powers.

Pretty cool.

After all, it's not like the Titans were unremittingly evil.

Brad

 

[Oni]

Power sources are not entirely non-mechanical. For instance, power source matters to Sorcerers, and also for qualifying for some PP's and ED's.

To anyone that says powersources don't have different feels I would point to the 4 Defenders, Fighter, Paladin, Warden, and Swordmage. How can anyone seriously assert these all have the same feel, or that the differences are minor? The differences between them and the feel of each class is heavily guided by its power source. That design guide in an of itself is not a trivial contribution.

Anyway I myself eagerly await the shadow power source as I definately derive extra enjoyment out of classes with a dark and ookey feel. And the fact that I can be assured they're coming down the pipe to fill out that source is enough to make me happy that the sources exist in the first place.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

To everyone who brought it up, yes of course I realize power sources aren't new to D&D, or any rpg really. Don't get me wrong, I love having class fluff. I love the Tome of Magic from 3e because of its fluff. I just don't like this plethora of lame little tags that encourage players and DMs to assume that power sources are rigid identifiers that need to be accompanied by mechanics. If WotC is going to devote 3-4 lines of text to class fluff, they'd be better filled with fluff unique to that class. And keep the fluff as fluff, leave the mechanics out.

I am not quite sure why some people seem to be having multi-orgasmic thrill rides...

Runestar, you make me smile.

Why all the joygasms over new power sources? You can refluff the PHB classes into just about any variation of 'magic' or 'non-magic' power source you can think of. Heck, psions already exist right in the PHB. (A class that uses elemental energy and intellect to control the battlefield...it supposedly needs a spell book but doesn't.)

 

[Runestar]

The differences between them and the feel of each class is heavily guided by its power source. That design guide in an of itself is not a trivial contribution.

That makes it a designer-only guideline, which has minimal impact on actual gameplay for the players. The classes would still still give me the same play experience regardless of what power source descriptor their powers possessed. Switch all the power sources of a fighter's powers from martial to arcane. Do you see the fighter suddenly play any differently?

What is stopping me from taking a martial power such a rain of blows, change its power source to primal, and giving it to the barbarian? It still works the same (unlike in 3e, where arcane spells were subject to arcane spell failure, unlike divine spells). Heck, even with arcane or divine descriptor, it would still work the same.

 

[Siberys]

I like power sources. As aforementioned, it's just codifying something that already existed in D&D, giving us a nice shorthand. Role is the class' job; source is how it does that job.

Defining power sources allows for some game design space, too; for example, see the Archmage ED's level 26 Utility. It also allows some mechanical distinction in the form of how a class fulfills its role; Fighters and Wardens defend differently, doing the same job in different ways, for example.

 

[Cadfan]

That makes it a designer-only guideline, which has minimal impact on actual gameplay for the players. The classes would still still give me the same play experience regardless of what power source descriptor their powers possessed. Switch all the power sources of a fighter's powers from martial to arcane. Do you see the fighter suddenly play any differently?

What is stopping me from taking a martial power such a rain of blows, change its power source to primal, and giving it to the barbarian? It still works the same (unlike in 3e, where arcane spells were subject to arcane spell failure, unlike divine spells). Heck, even with arcane or divine descriptor, it would still work the same.

Well, yes. But that still doesn't make power sources a trivial design issue.

I know its forum suicide to make an analogy to any game other than D&D, because some geek-supremacist will come along and sneer at the game you used in comparison. But I really do think that an analogy to Magic the Gathering is in order.

Colors in Magic matter. They don't matter for every individual card, necessarily. But they do matter for the overall theme of the collection of cards given that particular color. There are plenty of individual cards which have absolutely nothing to link them to their color except fluff. Your generic, run of the mill 2/2 creature, for example, exists in every single color. And even for specific card concepts, a true master of Magic history and lore can probably remember places where these concepts showed up outside of their normal or stereotypical home. A card which does damage to everything in play? Usually red... unless its black... or green... etc. But none of this negates the idea that, as a collection, there are individual characteristics.

If you created a scatter plot of concepts, the swarm of dots for each power source would speckle almost every bit of the graph- but it would still have heavy concentrations in some areas and not in others, in ways that are not mimicked by other power sources.

Did that make sense?