Am I the only one who thinks Incarnum is hokey?

[moritheil]

So, I get that essentia is your own life force. Incarnum is universal ambient life energy, like the Force is to Jedi. You manipulate this stuff. Fine.

What I don't understand is why the entire system has to be bizzare and not resemble either of the two well-developed systems of magic or psionics. Couldn't you model the use of your own internal energy using psionics?

Well, I guess that wouldn't sell more books, according to their vision.

 

[Crothian]

I know very little of the book since I don't own it, but I'm happy they didn't model in after magic like they did psionics. That was the biggest mistake they did with psionics and it makes psionics not all that different. They need different systems to really make the different type of abilities actually be different instead of just different window dressing.

 

[Mercule]

I know very little of the book since I don't own it, but I'm happy they didn't model in after magic like they did psionics. That was the biggest mistake they did with psionics and it makes psionics not all that different. They need different systems to really make the different type of abilities actually be different instead of just different window dressing.

Ditto. I'm dislike spell slots, and spell points are nothing more than quantum slots.

I expect Incarnum and the related books are targeted more at people like me, who want something completely different than people happy with the current system. Honestly, I wouldn't buy anything that was truly compatible with the core casting system. Just like feats and PrCs, I've got more spells than I can keep up with, and am done buying anything that caters to that glut.

I haven't looked through Incarnum, but am mildly interested in it. On the other hand the "Magic of..." book coming out in the spring (forget the name) has me well and truly excited. I am extra-super-uber interested in Ari's shadow magic.

 

[Voadam]

What I don't understand is why the entire system has to be bizzare and not resemble either of the two well-developed systems of magic or psionics. Couldn't you model the use of your own internal energy using psionics?

That was the point of it, to develop a new type of magic mechanic without slots or points.

Harnessing your internal energy works great for psionics, it can work great for spell magic too such as for sorcerer magic. It need not be tied or restricted to any one mechanic.

Many people won't use Incarnum. Many people don't use psionics either. There is a ton of vancian magic stuff out there and more coming so for those who like the core stuff they won't be hurting.

I'm hoping the Incarnum mechanic is nifty and convenient to use.

 

[moritheil]

Well, I'll confess that my issues with it are metaphysical as well as mechanical. I mean, so there's a universal ambient life force that can be tapped for feats of great power. Wonderful. Why has it not been tapped throughout history? Massive retcons or handwaving explanations of why entire worlds lack people able to tap into it will now be needed.

See, that's fundamentally one of the problems. I have a world that originally had magic and psionics. Now, I'll have to write hundreds of incarnum wielders into the history if even one player wants to play an Incarnum wielder? That just seems contrived. Of course, I could rule that they are unique, or that Incarnum just sort of suddenly became available, but that's even more contrived.

YMMV.

 

[JimAde]

Well, I'll confess that my issues with it are metaphysical as well as mechanical. I mean, so there's a universal ambient life force that can be tapped for feats of great power. Wonderful. Why has it not been tapped throughout history? Massive retcons or handwaving explanations of why entire worlds lack people able to tap into it will now be needed.

See, that's fundamentally one of the problems. I have a world that originally had magic and psionics. Now, I'll have to write hundreds of incarnum wielders into the history if even one player wants to play an Incarnum wielder? That just seems contrived. Of course, I could rule that they are unique, or that Incarnum just sort of suddenly became available, but that's even more contrived.

YMMV.

Not if you make it a campaign event. A teacher has come from another plane, or some action of a deity makes incarnum suddenly available. Very few people can manipulate it so far (one of them being your hypothetical PC) but more are learning. Could be fun. Or just say no.

Any word on whether the incarnum stuff will be OGC? I don't have high hopes, but you never know until you ask...

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If I were to use Incarnum in an ongoing campaign setting (I doubt I will, but still), I'd have its availability be a result of the events of Bastion of Broken Souls, which focuses on preincarnate souls and a Big Bad misusing them.

You can either have your group run this adventure, or just tell them to read it at Barnes & Noble and say the new magics are available after that.

 

[Mercule]

See, that's fundamentally one of the problems. I have a world that originally had magic and psionics. Now, I'll have to write hundreds of incarnum wielders into the history if even one player wants to play an Incarnum wielder? That just seems contrived. Of course, I could rule that they are unique, or that Incarnum just sort of suddenly became available, but that's even more contrived.

Right. It doesn't already exist, therefore it shouldn't be written?

My homebrew has enough little pockets of oddballs that I can easily write it into a niche. Likewise, it's not like every little detail of every historic event has been documented in detail. So, it's always existed, but no PC ever bothered to get into it before. :shrug: Non-issue.

Question: Did you object to sorcerers for the same reason? Warlocks? Favored Souls? Hexblades? All of those use a different magic, at least descriptively, than has been available before.

 

[moritheil]

Right. It doesn't already exist, therefore it shouldn't be written?

My homebrew has enough little pockets of oddballs that I can easily write it into a niche. Likewise, it's not like every little detail of every historic event has been documented in detail. So, it's always existed, but no PC ever bothered to get into it before. :shrug: Non-issue.

Question: Did you object to sorcerers for the same reason? Warlocks? Favored Souls? Hexblades? All of those use a different magic, at least descriptively, than has been available before.

No, not that it shouldn't be written, just that it shouldn't be written crappily and without abundant DM options for easing it into a campaign. Psionics was written with many such options, some of which were even metaphysically plausible.

Re: Your homebrew, if not actually knowing what the heck went on in your own world floats your boat, far be it from me to tell you you're doing anything wrong.

Re: Sorcs, FS, Hexblades: They all use magic, so no, no objection. Here with Incarnum, you're talking about this massive, primal life force power that suddenly becomes available. One deity made it available? Give me a break. What deities have that kind of power just sitting around? They'd have to be almost overdeity status to be able to arbitrarily decide to do that.

Plus, I should explain my thoughts on magic. Magic is the manipulation of all external energies. So, if this 'incarnum' life energy existed, it would just be covered under necromancy, which is simply the manipulation of life energies. Making life energy manipulation isn't what bugs me; the fact that it claims to not be covered by magic bugs me. It would be like me making a new system of magic based on the manipulation of Fire, that somehow isn't magic at all, but instead "firerum," the manipulation of the fire that is inherent in all living things and as ambient energy everywhere.

It's completely arbitrary. Why does life energy rate its own new magical system? There's no underlying metaphysical reason to justify it. Necromancy isn't somehow supreme over all the other schools. Fire isn't somehow supreme over all the other elements. There's no reason to elevate one to the status of "alternate Weave" and neglect all the others.

 

[Sarellion]

If your campaign world has difficulty to incorporate Incarnum than just exclude it or do you feel pressured by your players to include it?

You could define the Incarnum energies as something different than magic. In my homebrew , magic is the energy of the cosmos merged with the power of the dead earth goddess. Psionics was weak telepathy but got boosted by the emergence of magic that weakened the laws of nature.
You could define that Incarnum is the art of manipulating life energy and magic is the art of manipulating the laws of nature.
Arcane magic can emulate incarnum magic via necromancy but it´s more like a bad emulation system instead of the real thing.

Sorry I could help you more if I had read Incarnum but I hope it helps. If you want to include it , it´s not so difficult to include it somewhere. Life force of a dead god, the energy of an exploded star, the star aligned the right way opened the gates to another place of power.
Atomic power wasn´t discovered until recently, so someone could just stumbled over it recently.