Am I the only one who thinks Incarnum is hokey?

[Aaron L]

Oh, it can still be Incarnum, a new substance created with the newfound method of metaphsysical manipulation of the omnipresent substance of which souls are made, used to augment ones abilities. As opposed to the ancient magical art of necromancy, which abuses and twists living (and unliving) souls to the mages will using incantations, formulae, and words of power. And opposed to psionics, which is the external use and projection of the living energies resulting from a mind, body, and soul working in unison.


Me, Im still waiting for even MORE supernatural powersets to add to my game. Incarnum made me happy when I first heard of it. Now to go into my world and find out where it fits!

 

[moritheil]

Oh, it can still be Incarnum, a new substance created with the newfound method of metaphsysical manipulation of the omnipresent substance of which souls are made. As opposed to the ancient magical art of necromancy, which abuses and twists living (and unliving) souls to the mages will. And opposed to psionics, which is the external use and projection of the living energies resulting from a mind, body, and soul working in unison.


Me, Im still waiting for even MORE supernatural powersets to add to my game. Incarnum made me happy when I first heard of it. Now to go into my world and find out where it fits!

I'm sure you're making some WOTC bean-counters splendidly happy, and I'm at least happy for you that you take such transcendent joy in the product. I personally don't find it suits me or my campaign world, for the many reasons I have listed.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I congratulate you on what you know, and thank you for not attempting to assert that you can prove it.

Classy.

My assertion is not that you have to think to incorporate it; it's that the more you think about it, the more you realize you CAN'T incorporate it smoothly. You have to be brain-dead, or at least willing to suspend logic, to do so.

Actually, logic would seem to dictate that new techniques are discovered all the time. Controllable nuclear reactions didn't exist in human history prior to the 1940s CE; incarnum didn't exist in Eberron prior to the 990s YK.

Now, it may seem to you that a wellspring of energy from which the souls of all life spring and to which they all return is something that the world would have discovered long before the period of time in which the campaign takes place; yet, to further abuse the analogy, the nuclear furnace of the sun is literally fundamental to life on Earth, but humanity has only begun to use this energy in the last seventy years or less.

If you don't find the concept of incarnum manipulation interesting, if you don't think it's appropriate for your game, or if you would prefer to have had the hard work of incorporating it into your campaign done more extensively than Magic of Incarnum offers, then that's your natural prerogative. I don't think, however, that it's in any way legitimate to suggest that it's impossible to incorporate incarnum-using classes into your campaign smoothly, unless you consider the appearance of a new way of doing things inherently "unsmooth".

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Addendum: I also disagree that Wizards of the Coast has a responsibility, as you seem to imply, to produce only those products which fit a single approach to fantasy gaming. I'd argue that the opposite is true: they have a responsibility as the market leader to push the boundaries of what D&D is; after all, people like you don't have to support these innovations with your cash if you don't care to do so.

 

[Jackelope King]

My problem with that method, Aaron, is that it is no longer Incarnum if it isn't a new energy, is it? I say that the fundamental premise stinks, and you say I should discard it. Very logical. But without that premise, what reason is there for me to use this material at all?

If you like the mechanics, then ditch the pre-packaged flavor and use 'em. If not, don't bother. I for one plan on getting this book and completely gutting the idea of visible "soulmelds" and using it as the basis for spirit-channelers. Same mechanics, new flavor. I could care less what sort of flavor WotC packages something with: nine times out of ten I'll probably ditch it in favor of my own anyway, since the game I'm running is already far enough out-there (a game here psionics are the primary form of "spellcasting"). I'd be tickled pink if they sent me some great flavor, but I like finding good flavor for the mechanics in my game. Of course, if you don't like the mechanics anyway, then don't bother with the thing, as others have been saying.

 

[WizarDru]

I think we should lay some ground work, here. Magic of Incarnum is NOT an alternate magic system. Not even close. If anything, it is an alternate magic ITEM system, with a trace or psionics mixed in. The difference is important. The book goes to great lengths to illustrate how it can be incorporated into an ongoing campaign or even be the basis of a new campaign. New spells, hexes and infusions are included, and suggestions for where specific classes might appear in specific settings are offered.

As for explaining it's presence in a game previously unconnected with it...it's no more or less difficult than including Psionics was. How do tell the difference between a Pentifex Monolith with soulmelds and a specialized fighter with magic items? From the perspective of an opponent, only one way....you don't get the monolith's loot when he dies. How can tell apart a paladin versus a LG Incarnate versus a LG FTR/Blademeld versus a psychic warror? Functionally, not easily.

I rather like the system. It's mechanically different enough that it fills a niche not already filled, IMHO, and it offers some interesting options. For example, a classic trope of many anime series is the ability of a character to summon an item from some extra-dimensional space. While MoI doesn't exactly match this, it comes close. I can easily see a show like Beet the Vandel Buster based directly on MoI, where a character's measure of his ability to smash monsters is partly based on his possesion of a 'Saiga', a magical item powered by his soul.

So no, I don't view it as hoakey.

 

[Mercule]

You're not the first one to imply or state this. Care to explain?

Explain what, exactly? That all D&D products are optional? That fact is self-evident. Each campaign/setting/group plays slightly differently. If Incarnum works for you, that's bloody cool. If not, well, no armed goons are going to show up, and it doesn't invalidate anything that you've already done.

Were you upset by the inclusion of Incantations in Unearthed Arcana? That's definitely a new magic system that has no resemblance to anything else. How about Taint?

It must really burn you that "Elements of Magic" is pretty much incompatible with the core system. After all, how do you explain its sudden existence? Yeah, yeah, it's not a WotC product, but Incarnum is no more "standard" or "required" than EoM.

And comparing D&D to Magic is apples and oranges. In Magic, every set includes the assumption you've gotten the one before it (at least to a degree). That holds for tournaments and most casual play, too. In D&D, the explicitly stated assumption/principle WotC works under is that you only have the core three books.

I really can understand not liking the Incarnum system on its own merits. That makes total sense. I cannot believe that anyone is so conservative, close-minded, or anal-retentive that they dislike it simply because it's a bit different than anything else.

If it would be hard to work into your setting, then don't bloody use it. It's a pretty basic concept. And having a campaign setting that has been painted into such a corner that it can't fit something new in (if that something is cool, which is a different discussion) isn't exactly something I'd be bragging about. For a game that's not exactly a value-added feature.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Explain what, exactly? That all D&D products are optional? That fact is self-evident. Each campaign/setting/group plays slightly differently. If Incarnum works for you, that's bloody cool. If not, well, no armed goons are going to show up, and it doesn't invalidate anything that you've already done.

Were you upset by the inclusion of Incantations in Unearthed Arcana? That's definitely a new magic system that has no resemblance to anything else. How about Taint?

It must really burn you that "Elements of Magic" is pretty much incompatible with the core system. After all, how do you explain its sudden existence? Yeah, yeah, it's not a WotC product, but Incarnum is no more "standard" or "required" than EoM.

And comparing D&D to Magic is apples and oranges. In Magic, every set includes the assumption you've gotten the one before it (at least to a degree). That holds for tournaments and most casual play, too. In D&D, the explicitly stated assumption/principle WotC works under is that you only have the core three books.

I really can understand not liking the Incarnum system on its own merits. That makes total sense. I cannot believe that anyone is so conservative, close-minded, or anal-retentive that they dislike it simply because it's a bit different than anything else.

If it would be hard to work into your setting, then don't bloody use it. It's a pretty basic concept. And having a campaign setting that has been painted into such a corner that it can't fit something new in (if that something is cool, which is a different discussion) isn't exactly something I'd be bragging about. For a game that's not exactly a value-added feature.

I just have to say this in case no one else does:

AWESOME.

Especially that last paragraph.

 

[diaglo]

don't own it yet. but i'll probably just buy it to complete my collection.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Well, I'll confess that my issues with it are metaphysical as well as mechanical. I mean, so there's a universal ambient life force that can be tapped for feats of great power. Wonderful. Why has it not been tapped throughout history? Massive retcons or handwaving explanations of why entire worlds lack people able to tap into it will now be needed.

See, that's fundamentally one of the problems. I have a world that originally had magic and psionics. Now, I'll have to write hundreds of incarnum wielders into the history if even one player wants to play an Incarnum wielder? That just seems contrived. Of course, I could rule that they are unique, or that Incarnum just sort of suddenly became available, but that's even more contrived.

YMMV.

Ever read Magician by Raymond Feist? Pug can't cast spells the way his master Kurgan can, but he learns to become a Great One on another world and brings his magic back with him to Midkemia and learns that there are others who use magic, just not all in the same way, and eventually that gives rise to Stardock, an isle refuge for spellcasters.

How about the various books of Shanara? Or even the Wheel of Time? Having people discover their power is hardly original, but is common.