D&D 5E Am I too strict?

[Lanefan]

Yeah this is true, completely depends on how much loot they have. If they're already loaded this debate is kind of pointless.

Still, I really don't understand this campaign's "ink cost." Even if you're writing pages and pages of spells, you're not going to use much more than a couple of bottles of ink.

Can't speak for anything official, but in my game magic-grade ink (much higher quality than ordinary run-of-the-mill ink) costs about 20 g.p. per page, and each spell has a page count that varies from 1 to - in at least one case - over 80; with most being in the 5-20 range.

That said, training - and associated fees and charges - is a thing in my game and always will be; and you don't get new spells (or even the extra slots) until you train, but when you do train the cost of the new spell is built in. For fairness, the training fees work on about the same baseline for all classes even though in the fiction it's kinda difficult to justify it for ordinary Fighters.

And with very rare exceptions usually involving Fighters, training can't be done in the field.

So even if this setting is a desert and ink is really rare, it's really weird to imagine someone walking up to a traveling merchant and saying "Hi, I'd like three bottles of ink!" and then dropping a big bag of gold coins in exchange. Hell HP would be jealous of prices like that (and HP has an ink monopoly for their printers!)

Though the more I think about it, I kind of like the idea of a global cartel that limits the output of ink and therefore all writing, using that power to control transfer of information and shoring up its own money/power. A Facebook/HP amalgamation.

This could be the seed for a great backstory and long-term plot, but rather than a single BBEG you're up against what amounts to a worldwide corporation or cartel (think SPECTRE but without Blofeld as a central leader), with the heroes' goal being to bring literacy - and therefore education - to the masses!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Can't speak for anything official, but in my game magic-grade ink (much higher quality than ordinary run-of-the-mill ink) costs about 20 g.p. per page, and each spell has a page count that varies from 1 to - in at least one case - over 80; with most being in the 5-20 range.

That said, training - and associated fees and charges - is a thing in my game and always will be; and you don't get new spells (or even the extra slots) until you train, but when you do train the cost of the new spell is built in. For fairness, the training fees work on about the same baseline for all classes even though in the fiction it's kinda difficult to justify it for ordinary Fighters.

And with very rare exceptions usually involving Fighters, training can't be done in the field.

This could be the seed for a great backstory and long-term plot, but rather than a single BBEG you're up against what amounts to a worldwide corporation or cartel (think SPECTRE but without Blofeld as a central leader), with the heroes' goal being to bring literacy - and therefore education - to the masses!

What exactly is the logic behind requiring training to level?

Downtime I can see the logic, but training?

 

[Lanefan]

What exactly is the logic behind requiring training to level?

Downtime I can see the logic, but training?

You take the theory class first, then go out in the field and put that theory into practice. When you're comfortable with that and ready to learn more theory, back into the classroom you go for another round of theory. That's how most training I've ever done tends to work - best example I can think of is a learn-to-sail course I took as a kid. First half of each lesson was classroom theory, second half was out on the water putting that theory into practice (or, more often, showing we hadn't listened to a word the instructor had just said in the class, but whatever... )

So, before 1st-level you're assumed to have already done that round of theory training - which can take years for anyone other than Fighters - in order to become whatever class you are. After you bump to 2nd you're up for another round of theory training into whatever new abilities that level provides, so you do it and then back into the field you go. Lather rinse repeat.

 

[Helldritch]

We opted for a money sink cash approach. It is not training but upkeep in armor, weapons. magical consumables and downtime living expanses. To each his own I guess. As long as players have money to spend it on.

 

[DND_Reborn]

We opted for a money sink cash approach. It is not training but upkeep in armor, weapons. magical consumables and downtime living expanses. To each his own I guess. As long as players have money to spend it on.

You know, for the fun of it I just checked out our current coin horde for our main campaign (over 18 months of play, 14-15th level PCs) and our collective group has over 185,000 gp saved up. (Hence, why we are rebuilding a ruined castle.) I don't know in comparison if that is "a lot" or not since I don't know how other games run, but it seems towards the high end? FWIW, we equate 1 GP = $100 USD, so we are sitting on over 18 million dollars right now.

I really need to ask the other players, "Why haven't we retired yet???"

 

[Helldritch]

A single archmage's spellbooks cyclopedia (as in multiple spellbook, writting a spell takes a lot of pages) in my campaigns in Greyhawk could fetch well over half a million gold pieces, depending on the spells in it. The more common spells are worth a lot less. The more specialised the spell, the costlier, up to a 15,000 gp for a 9th level rare spell. Meteor swarm could go for less, maybe half. In the earlier post, I gave the maximum cost for convenience. Of course some spells are more rare than others due to their specialized status. Such spells are spread across all levels. You rarely see a sorcerer taking arcane lock (even a wizard for that matter, depending on his spec) as his prime choice of spell. This is why arcane lock is considered a "rare" spell in my campaign. The more damage oriented spells or "auto win" spells are usually common knowledge. The costs I gave are usually for the rarest spells. Still 7th trough 9th level spell are almost always of the rare type.

I still have rules for castle and fiefdoms expanses, church buildings and expanses as well as the thiefguild management rules of decades ago. It is not only the mage that have money sinks and means of making money out of adventure, all other characters can do so. No exceptions. With hindsight, I now see what the powergamer was trying to achieve. An early start on his laboratory. Every gold counts and it could mean a nice headstart for him. He could acquire a good laboratory at 10th or 11th level instead of having to wait for 12th level as most other wizards are doing. (we are talking spell research here, not potion making or enchanting.) I should've seen it way before that, but being called on such an old rule as being too strict unbalanced me. Other than a few minor quirks here there, we play by the rules. What we add is usually for high level play in mind so that characters have something other than dungeon delving at high level.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You take the theory class first, then go out in the field and put that theory into practice. When you're comfortable with that and ready to learn more theory, back into the classroom you go for another round of theory. That's how most training I've ever done tends to work - best example I can think of is a learn-to-sail course I took as a kid. First half of each lesson was classroom theory, second half was out on the water putting that theory into practice (or, more often, showing we hadn't listened to a word the instructor had just said in the class, but whatever... )

So, before 1st-level you're assumed to have already done that round of theory training - which can take years for anyone other than Fighters - in order to become whatever class you are. After you bump to 2nd you're up for another round of theory training into whatever new abilities that level provides, so you do it and then back into the field you go. Lather rinse repeat.

I have never learned any hands-on skill in that way, past perhaps the very most basic safety stuff, like how to use a table saw without hurting yourself, or what the dials on a torch do.

I learned to work on cars 100% in a shop, on the job, on customers' cars. I learned to climb, hike, and catch crawdads in the canyon and river near my hometown. Some stuff can work that way, sure, but the idea that all skills work that way is...just really strange, to me.

More importantly, I got better at those things primarily by continuing to do them, and by taking on more challenging iterations of those tasks.

Sure, it makes sense for swordfighters to train and spar with other fighters, and learn new techniques that way, but to model that somewhat rationally in the game world you'd have to treat fighting techniques like the game treats wizard spells.

Don't get me wrong, I want to do that, with an optional suite of abilities, feats, and at least one subclass or new class, but you absolutely don't have to go spend downtime training with someone to get better at fighting when you're already a "professional" level fighter. Fighting other people who are at or above the same level of skill, teaching others, etc, will make you better.

 

[Helldritch]

The mindset of Lanefan (and mine too by the way) probably comes from 1ed where you were not a full fledge wizard until level 11, a full fledge fighter until 9th and so on. This was called name level. Before that, you were only learning how to do your job. With name level came reputation and a sense of achievement that is no longer there in newer editions.

Without name level, I went the expenses for all. Lanefan kept the training. I think both approaches are quite valid.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The mindset of Lanefan (and mine too by the way) probably comes from 1ed where you were not a full fledge wizard until level 11, a full fledge fighter until 9th and so on. This was called name level. Before that, you were only learning how to do your job. With name level came reputation and a sense of achievement that is no longer there in newer editions.

Without name level, I went the expenses for all. Lanefan kept the training. I think both approaches are quite valid.

I mean, all they need to be valid is to be enjoyable by the group using them.

I just want to make sense of them from any perspective other than trying to make the game feel more like an older edition. Nothing wrong with that, but if that is the only real rationale to it, let me know and I'll no longer be curious about it.

 

[Monayuris]

For the first time, a player called me too strict for a ruling I made.
Here is the ruling:" Although the wizard learns too free spells to add to his spell book, I ruled that the wizard still have to pay for the materials (inks) to write it in his spell book." I also ruled that you can only add spells during downtime unless you want to risk a failure in case you are attacked during the transcription.

My reasons are two folds.
1) By Raw, the spells are free to add. But right in the side bar they say that whenever you find a new spell you have to copy in your spell book.

2) The spells do not appear out of nowhere. You have to have the special inks to put them in your spell book.

I gave the following example: A group is in the desert. They barely have enough food to get by. They have a weapon, an empty backpack (almost, the dried camel is stored in their backpack) and in case of caster, they have a spell focus. The group rise in level, they are now level 3! Yeah! The wizard adds two spells to his spell book but where did the ink came from? Did the spell appeared out of nowhere?

Nope, the new spells are a sudden inspiration. The wizard knows them, he gets them in his mind but now if he wants to change them, he needs to find ink to copy them in his spell book. Yes, they were free as in he did not buy them from an other wizard, he did not have to capture the spell book of an enemy, he did not have to make a quest to know it. But otherwise, he has to abide by the side bar.

I am a bit old school. Spells costs a lot in my campaign. First and second level spells cost 50 gold pieces per level just to copy. You still need to have the inks to copy them.
third through fifth level cost 250 gp per levels and 6th to 8th level are 1000 gold per level. A single spell of 9th level costs 15,000 gold and that is IF the other caster is friendly, very friendly to you (as in, (s)he owes you BIG TIME).

Is this too strict? Money to copy and acquire spell is a big money sink in my games and that is at all levels.
I have the feeling that he wants them totally free only to make more low level scrolls during downtime.

Makes perfect sense to me.

I wouldn't think twice about this ruling if I was a wizard player in your game.

I agree that spell costs should matter in the game. I consider the official rules of two free spells, on leveling, to be quite generous. I prefer that wizards find their spells, but it does make some abstract sense that the wizard is working on their own in downtime, so I don't really make a big deal out of it when I run.