D&D 5E Amazon US book sales rank.

[Parmandur]

I doubt that bookscan would represent a higher percentage of 3e sales than it does 5e sales. FLGSes don't report to bookscan - and certainly didn't then - and I'd expect that with 3e, the VAST majority of its sales were still from hobby stores and the like.

Well, I was thinking "no Beyond" and "not a huge percentage would be Amazon, or Amazon may have been better st reporting 20 hears ago". But you are right, FLGS would still be a big driver for the numbers to be below the 75% normally accounted for by Bookscan.

Still, though, the relative 3E numbers versus 5E numbers are drastic based on what was in that data. Several 5E supplemets have sold more on Bookscan than the 3E PHB did.

 

[Parmandur]

A lot of people who got the AD&D books also got the D&D Basic book.

Interestingly, based on Ben Riggs' figures, Red Box sold less than Moldvay Basic!

(Red Box figures - 1.1 million lifetime sales. Moldvay Basic - 1.26 million lifetime sales).

It makes sense, when you consider that TSR's height ended abruptly in 1984.

 

[Parmandur]

Yup. Moldvey Basic is the king.

It’s interesting that I think WotC has known this internally for a long time. If you squint at 2014 5e I’ll think you’ll see it’s Moldvey nostalgia.

I always wanted to ask @mearls about that, if it was intentional.

I am pretty sure that @mearls actually says that in this (absolutely fascinating) panel, even goijg so far as to say that if TSR had juat been selling just Moldvay (no "AD&D") with Race seperated out from Class and ascending AC they could have gotten away with having an evergreen game:

 

[Zardnaar]

A lot of people who got the AD&D books also got the D&D Basic book.

Interestingly, based on Ben Riggs' figures, Red Box sold less than Moldvay Basic!

(Red Box figures - 1.1 million lifetime sales. Moldvay Basic - 1.26 million lifetime sales).

There's also the black box at 600k as well iirc.

So using Ray's figure 5E is biggest selling D&D ever but 1E/Basic line is still peak D&D using those numbers.

Ans the population was smaller to so bigger cultural impact.

 

[MerricB]

There's also the black box at 600k as well iirc.

So using Ray's figure 5E is biggest selling D&D ever but 1E/Basic line is still peak D&D using those numbers.

Ans the population was smaller to so bigger cultural impact.

Ray Winninger's figure is NOT 2 million. That's my estimate.

Ray corrected me and said it's "far more than 2 million".

###

You can't just add different editions of Basic D&D together, either. The overlap in buyers is unknown.

Cheers,
Merric

 

[mamba]

Red box and 1E phb combined have outsold that 2 million figure for example.

2M is nowhere near a realistic figure however. In mid 2023 a realistic figure was around 6M, if you want to lowball that it still is 5M+

 

[Zardnaar]

Ray Winninger's figure is NOT 2 million. That's my estimate.

Ray corrected me and said it's "far more than 2 million".

###

You can't just add different editions of Basic D&D together, either. The overlap in buyers is unknown.

Cheers,
Merric

Ah derp. My estimate is higher as apparently bookscan is 30% of the market.

It's not 10% or 100% so gives you a minimum and maximum range

 

[Zardnaar]

2M is nowhere near a realistic figure however. In mid 2023 a realistic figure was around 6M, if you want to lowball that it still is 5M+

I misread the 2 million figure.

 

[mearls]

Yup. Moldvey Basic is the king.

It’s interesting that I think WotC has known this internally for a long time. If you squint at 2014 5e I’ll think you’ll see it’s Moldvey nostalgia.

I always wanted to ask @mearls about that, if it was intentional.

That's definitely a factor. I think Moldvay is a great model for what D&D could be. It's a slim book with relatively simple mechanics and a focused approach to play. Making the game more accessible was a huge goal.

 

[mearls]

I am pretty sure that @mearls actually says that in this (absolutely fascinating) panel, even goijg so far as to say that if TSR had juat been selling just Moldvay (no "AD&D") with Race seperated out from Class and ascending AC they could have gotten away with having an evergreen game:

I think there's a tendency for TTRPGs to grow more complex with each new edition, recapturing current players but losing its ability to gain new ones. There were factors beyond game design that played a role in AD&D becoming the main version of the game - TSR basically lost its ability to sell in mass market outlets once the fad passed - but I think making the more complex version of the game the default and the lack of a clear path from Basic to AD&D really hurt the game.

Continuity is a big benefit between editions. It's why I think the 2024 version of D&D will have a fairly light touch.