Ampersand: 2011 releases officially gutted

[Nemesis Destiny]

Oh no I didn't mean it like that. I meant future content. It's always true that as long as you own the stuff no one can stop you from using it. I never said enforce and I didn't realize what I said had that tone.

I catch your drift now. It did sound like an overreaction at first. I see what you meant now though.

What I mean is there's only a limited amount of money and time to go around. If that money/time is funneled into VTT and support for a digital only D&D experience the print form will need to be cut back. That direction would be a losing battle. I don't think there's anyone who would believe D&D could survive in a digital format. It's totally fine as a hybrid print/digital thing, but going full on digital would be a terrible idea. They'd lose a ton of players and most likely gain almost no new ones seeing as the digital landscape is already filled with RPGs of one kind of another.

A fair assessment, I think. It is far easier for them to compete with Paizo, Whitewolf, Steve Jackson, Mongoose, etc, etc, than it would be for them to go up against Blizzard or Bioware.

If I want that I can play Neverwinter Nights. Of course that's tongue-in-cheek but I think you get the gist of what I mean. D&D is the big fish in its little pond. If D&D were to move to an all digital format based around VTT it would be a minnow in the ocean and I think the majority of its long time players and supporters would just stay playing 4e or whatever other older edition. WoTC needs to stop splitting their player base into little pieces.

Every new edition has this effect but with 4E we also got DDI which further splits the community. They simply can't afford to keep doing that. Essentials was recognition that they understand this problem and want to fix it. It provided access to the new style of rules, class builds that are more reminiscent of older editions of D&D and did it all in an affordable package.

I agree with you about Essentials. I think we both see it the same way. That said, the saddest part of this is that even though Essentials was a totally optional add-on to the 4e line, that could be integrated, played separately, or ignored entirely, it still split the community. It somehow annoyed the people who liked what had already been done with 4e, and likely as an extension of the 3e way of doing things. Somehow a lot of these folks felt insulted or betrayed (and somewhat confused) by the Essentials line. I don't entirely understand it, but that was the reaction we witnessed.

I think these were the folks that liked the 4e ruleset, as an extension of the Book of Nine Swords school of thought, but who wanted to continue with the 3e business model of zillions of classes and splatbooks. To them Essentials was a step backward. As I said, I don't necessarily agree, and I think that the type of things that lead to schisms within the community are often silly and trivial. That doesn't stop them from occurring.

If even the olive branch that was Essentials caused a schism, then what can WotC possibly do that won't?

Now we're told books that would transition older material to this updated format/style (and expand it in the direction laid out by Essentials) will be cut. There are hints it will appear on DDI. I was fine with how things were being handled early on. DDI provided a useful resource for people who wanted it, that's great. It also had new content in magazine format which is a great idea and really necessary to keep people engaged. Now I feel I'm being forced down that path though. Instead of DDI subscribers getting alternate options from those of us only buying books they'll be getting the updated takes on phb classes? That's a bit much for me to accept without being at least somewhat miffed.

I can understand the frustration. I feel it too. I was going to buy those books, in all probablility. I liked Essentials, and I wanted to know how to better integrate those classes with the old ones, or how the designers intend for powers to be swapped within a class. I have ideas on how I think it works, and if those books never see the light of day in any form, I will houserule it for my games, but I still want official rules too.

If I have to subscribe to get access, I think that sucks. Don't misunderstand: I have no problems with paying for the material, but putting it all behind the paywall, which amounts to renting access to D&D... that just sucks. I like the game though, and the price isn't terrible, so I will do it anyway.

I agree with you. I'd at least like the option of getting this material from Amazon, or Chapters, or my FLGS. Not being able to do that, I think they're shooting themselves in the foot even further. Now instead of DDI, Hardcopy, or piracy, the only options are now DDI or piracy. I think that they'll find a lot of folks that would have bought the books because of some issue or another with DDI, will now just pirate the material that they otherwise would have paid for. They're chopping off their own nose to spite their face. Again.

Worse for them still if the DDI content remains in PDF article format. Even if the issues remain non-compiled, they're still trivially easy to pirate and distribute to non-paying players. That is why I mourn either the loss of Dragon and Dungeon, or the material from the axed books.

If Dragon and Dungeon articles are to become the vehicle for the distribution of that material, as has been hinted, then they certainly can't continue just pumping it out in bite-sized PDFs. That doesn't solve their problem with digital distribution in PDF format.

If Dragon and Dungeon continue to be a part of the D&D landscape in its current form, then that almost certainly means that we won't see the material in those books presented there. It will likely mean that Dragon and Dungeon continue to be vehicles for fluff pieces, editorials, and advertising that we are paying to look at.

All this, to me, points to a something else. What that is, what form it will take, I can only guess.

 

[SlyDoubt]

I guess because I was part of the target of Essentials I felt it did do a good job. A lot of the comments I read across blogs and here seemed positive. It's disappointing to know it wasn't as universally accepted as I felt it was.

If it wasn't a success I guess it was at least evidence that they knew something had to be done and were trying to figure it out. I feel Dark Sun is in the same vein. Dark sun was what made me re-interested in 4E despite the things I wasn't so happy about. Essentials extended that feeling that Wizards was trying to give us paper lovers something genuinely useful instead of pointless 'x' power books which I never bothered with. To see that all flounder and hear about digital this and digital that is disheartening.

Like you said I don't see how releasing things digitally will curtail piracy in any form. If it's text I can copy it. If it's an image I can copy it. If it's a pdf I can copy it. Even if there was some other way someone could just transcribe it.

I buy books because they're inherently different than simply having a pdf. If everything is a pdf already I'm a lot less interested in paying for it if I don't have to.

I'm also not sure what else they can be doing.

Why didn't they give a free month or two with purchase of any Essentials product? I'm sure there's a way to make it so someone can't buy every product and have like 3/4s a year free by using different accounts. If there isn't so be it, maybe they should if they've spent that much on essentials stuff.

If you want people to use DDI with essentials as the foundation I don't see why they're so separated. Mentioning DDI in the books doesn't make it easy or enticing to go look for it. I should be given some kind of limited access. whether content limited but time unlimited or vice versa. Right now there's too much of a separation. DDI exists to make D&D bigger and bigger as more and more content is added. but without having to search through piles of books. That's a good thing. But why is it so separate?

If I buy a paper product I should receive something on DDI. The lack of union between the two is just stupid. For a company so scared of piracy their stuff is awfully easy to pirate with little incentive not to sometimes.

 

[Klaus]

I guess because I was part of the target of Essentials I felt it did do a good job. A lot of the comments I read across blogs and here seemed positive. It's disappointing to know it wasn't as universally accepted as I felt it was.

If it wasn't a success I guess it was at least evidence that they knew something had to be done and were trying to figure it out. I feel Dark Sun is in the same vein. Dark sun was what made me re-interested in 4E despite the things I wasn't so happy about. Essentials extended that feeling that Wizards was trying to give us paper lovers something genuinely useful instead of pointless 'x' power books which I never bothered with. To see that all flounder and hear about digital this and digital that is disheartening.

Like you said I don't see how releasing things digitally will curtail piracy in any form. If it's text I can copy it. If it's an image I can copy it. If it's a pdf I can copy it. Even if there was some other way someone could just transcribe it.

I buy books because they're inherently different than simply having a pdf. If everything is a pdf already I'm a lot less interested in paying for it if I don't have to.

I'm also not sure what else they can be doing.

Why didn't they give a free month or two with purchase of any Essentials product? I'm sure there's a way to make it so someone can't buy every product and have like 3/4s a year free by using different accounts. If there isn't so be it, maybe they should if they've spent that much on essentials stuff.

If you want people to use DDI with essentials as the foundation I don't see why they're so separated. Mentioning DDI in the books doesn't make it easy or enticing to go look for it. I should be given some kind of limited access. whether content limited but time unlimited or vice versa. Right now there's too much of a separation. DDI exists to make D&D bigger and bigger as more and more content is added. but without having to search through piles of books. That's a good thing. But why is it so separate?

If I buy a paper product I should receive something on DDI. The lack of union between the two is just stupid. For a company so scared of piracy their stuff is awfully easy to pirate with little incentive not to sometimes.

I think the move of those three books to digital format is less about piracy and more about the feedback they got from the DDi users that they prefer that sort of content (rules, feats, class variants, etc) in digital format.

 

[JoeGKushner]

and what type of feedback would that include from the non-ddi users?

Or are they now second class citizens who WoTc will reluctantly take their money all the while tsking that these kids new to get with the ddi program?

 

[DEFCON 1]

and what type of feedback would that include from the non-ddi users?

Or are they now second class citizens who WoTc will reluctantly take their money all the while tsking that these kids new to get with the ddi program?

Pretty much, yeah.

If you're playing 4E D&D using only the books and refuse to pay $6 a month for DDI... there's a chance that in the future you might have to rely on just Player's Handbook I, Player's Handbook II, Player's Handbook III, Martial Power, Arcane Power, Divine Power, Primal Power, Martial Power II, Psionic Power, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and Heroes of Shadow.

It'll be tough to survive on such a limited amount of character content, I know... but hopefully you'll be able to do it.

 

[Mapache]

D&D is a hobby that encourages its players to spend hours and hours pouring through books at random, either looking for just the right spell or power or item or else just for the joy of it.

None of these things are encouraged by a digital-only ruleset, and I hope WotC gives up on the idea right quick (assuming that switching to a primarily-online model is their plan).

That's just dead wrong. The digital nature of the compendium and the character builder have encouraged me to spend more time looking up powers and feats and tinkering with builds than I've actually spent playing the game. I would never have done so if I had to pore through a stack of books looking for things. I'll look things up online even when the book I *know* has that thing in it is in the same room as me, because it's easier. Searching for things without an indexed database is like relying on stone tools—I could, but why would I ever want to?

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

[MENTION=6667337]SlyDoubt[/MENTION] (mostly) - I also felt that Essentials did a good job. I was also, partly, in the target audience, as were members of my gaming group.

Granted we were/are already playing 4e and enjoying it, but Essentials seemed to be a nod toward addressing some of the complaints that us grognards had just decided to live with.

That's why I called it an olive branch, and why I was a little saddened, but ultimately not surprised, to see that some took offence to it and what it represented. Every time I see someone call it 'dumbed down 4e' a little part of me wants to scream and froth at the mouth and chew them out.

I just can't understand how people could get offended by it. I understand not liking it. Lots of stuff gets released that I don't like, but it doesn't offend me; I don't drop the whole product line like an old newspaper because one of the items in the series is not to my liking. I ignore it and move on.

If that were the case, I would have dropped 4e before I even picked it up (I ended up really enjoying 4e, for the most part). I would have dropped it when they updated Eberron for 4e (I found things in there to like and steal, Warforged notwithstanding). I would have dropped it when the Primal power source showed up (I actually grew to like that one). I would have dropped it when PHB3 introduced the Psionic power source (still hate psionics, but other stuff in PH3 was good). I would have dropped it when the Shadow power source was announced and Assassin was made a class instead of a PP (still don't like 'shadow' as a power source, but I will likely enjoy/steal/repurpose it for my games).

Nothing in that list worth getting offended over, feeling insulted by, or not enjoying an otherwise great game over. Not even dragon people with boobies, silly emo tieflings, and the rest of the art direction that I dislike so much. But hey, I understand, they have to appeal to a broader crowd then just us grognards, and getting well-known artists like Easley and Elmore would have been just as polarising to some and chewed through the art budget much faster. Besides, it was better than the art for 3e, and that's all that matters.

 

[lutecius]

Pretty much, yeah.

If you're playing 4E D&D using only the books and refuse to pay $6 a month for DDI... there's a chance that in the future you might have to rely on just Player's Handbook I, Player's Handbook II, Player's Handbook III, Martial Power, Arcane Power, Divine Power, Primal Power, Martial Power II, Psionic Power, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and Heroes of Shadow.

It'll be tough to survive on such a limited amount of character content, I know... but hopefully you'll be able to do it.

I think it'll be tough for the d&d department to survive without the book sales considering the growing number of subscribers disappointed by their digital intiative... but hopefully they'll be able to do it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

JoeGKushner
and what type of feedback would that include from the non-ddi users?

Or are they now second class citizens who WoTc will reluctantly take their money all the while tsking that these kids new to get with the ddi program?

Pretty much, yeah.

If you're playing 4E D&D using only the books and refuse to pay $6 a month for DDI... there's a chance that in the future you might have to rely on just Player's Handbook I, Player's Handbook II, Player's Handbook III, Martial Power, Arcane Power, Divine Power, Primal Power, Martial Power II, Psionic Power, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and Heroes of Shadow.

It'll be tough to survive on such a limited amount of character content, I know... but hopefully you'll be able to do it.

Echoing the concerns of JoeGKushner, I can guarantee you all that if/when D&D goes 100% digital, I won't be there paying for it.

Which is OK- that means I can buy more gemstones and guitars.

 

[Dice4Hire]

It'll be tough to survive on such a limited amount of character content, I know... but hopefully you'll be able to do it.

When your eyes fall out of your head after reading through all the feats on DDI don't come crying to me.