Ampersand: Sneak Attack

[The Little Raven]

It's hard to imagine how a halfling can 'feint and shove' an ogre 20 feet, indeed.

It's hard to imagine how a halfling can even survive an encounter with an ogre, since realistically the ogre would crush the halfling before the halfling could do much of anything, but that's why we don't judge fantasy encounters with realistic standards. We looked the other way when a person the size of a 2-year-old was able to wreak havoc on a dragon well over 50x his size with a small blade (3e halfling rogue versus dragon), so I don't see why it's so difficult to imagine him manipulating an ogre using his sharp blade and sharp tongue.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Shuriken are actually often used as fist/punching weapons, much like how one of the better ways to use the dagger or knife is in a punch/slash rather than a stab.

OK, that tells me! I didn't realise that at all; I always picture a star shaped throwing thing or a minor variation on that. Wouldn't want to punch someone with one of them in my hand!

EDIT: from Wikipedia:
"Shuriken (手裏剣; lit: "hand released blade") is a traditional Japanese concealed weapon that was generally used for throwing, and sometimes stabbing or slashing an opponent's arteries."

hand released blade, ta daa. Light bulb in my head

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I imagine a agile halfling rogue jumping about, nicking the ogre here and there, and always moving keeping the ogre off balance till it stumbles back.

Or as Batshido put on the official forum:

"I just got the mental image of a Fighter and an ogre battling furiously at cliff's edge, then a small, halfling shaped blur comes out of nowhere.

"YeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrraawwwarrrrBONK"

Flying headbutt, falling ogre, heroic pose, fade to black."

 

[TwinBahamut]

Err... whether or not a shuriken is a Light Blade or not is irrelevant to the question of whether or not a Rogue can throw a knife in order to Sneak Attack.

Historically in D&D, you can throw daggers. Being able to throw a dagger is practically its main advantage over just using a short sword. A dagger is almost certainly a Light Blade, and there is no exception preventing a rogue from Sneak Attacking with a Light Blade as thrown weapon.

Just because shuriken can obviously be used as ranged weapons doesn't exclude daggers from also being ranged weapons. Of course, whether or not thrown weapons count as a ranged weapons or melee weapons for the purposes of Powers, and whether or not daggers and shuriken may or may not have any special weapon qualities that affect that distinction (such as "throwable: this weapon can be used to make ranged attacks with a melee Power") are also unknown factors.

Anyways, I hope there are not any sub-categories below daggers, such as knives or stilettos. At that point, there would be too many overly similar weapons. I imagine that "Light Blade" can probably encompass everything from shuriken to rapiers, with no sub-categorization needed below that. The real question is if it is just "Light Blade" and "Heavy Blade", or if there is a middle ground of "Just Blade".

 

[mach1.9pants]

I think (points in forums always get lost) the point was that the Rogues proficiencies are "Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword" and he can only use "light blade, a crossbow, or a sling" for sneak attack.
If shuriken and dagger are both light blades (along with short swords) then a Rogue can use all his standard weapons to sneak attack.

 

[Tusz]

Here are a couple other observations I've made. I tried my best to not repeat anyone else in the thread; my apologies if any of this has already been mentioned.

-Shuriken naming: I think there's a good reason they're calling this group shuriken. They're avoiding calling it "throwing dagger" so that people won't get annoyed that their character doesn't get that for free when they get "dagger" proficiency. They're avoiding calling it "throwing weapons" so that it doesn't seem to include javelins and cabers and other large throwing objects.

-Weapon Damage: Despite what other people have said, I'm thinking this still includes strength bonus, just like in earlier editions. Why? Because of this quote: "Strength should be a close second—it increases your damage directly, and it can determine other effects of your attacks." That indicates to me that strength adds to all your damage, in addition to giving a bonus to your special abilities.

-Crimson Edge: Holy Crap. I'm hoping that all Dailies are like this, giving you a seriously powerful ability to pull out when everything's going against you. I love the idea that the tide of a losing battle can take a sudden, pronounced shift when all the PCs decide to go all-out and unleash their most powerful abilities. And if you give "boss" monsters devastating, single-use powers, it works the other way too.

-Tumble: I like that they've pretty much stopped with the pretense of rolling and wrapped it in with the shift (nee 5' step). Another realization is that they seem to have wrapped it in with Spring Attack: provided that a shift is still a free/swift/minor/whatever action, a Rogue with Tumble will be able to go in (move action), deal some damage (standard action), and get away clean (shift). Makes sense to me, considering this is exactly the description we've been given for what Rogues do.

 

[Wolfspider]

I think (points in forums always get lost) the point was that the Rogues proficiencies are "Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword" and he can only use "light blade, a crossbow, or a sling" for sneak attack.
If shuriken and dagger are both light blades (along with short swords) then a Rogue can use all his standard weapons to sneak attack.

Makes sense to me.

 

[Kurotowa]

Regarding the complains some people have that Stealth and Thievery are fixed skills, I think that goes to the stated design philosophy of all characters being good at their basic role as a fixed starting point. If you're playing a Rogue, no matter what else you do, you're at least good at being sneaky and light-fingered tricks. As they've said, it's so there's less of a system mastery requirement to not-suck by missing out on an essential class skill or ability.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Also in the previous game, we had fixed class skills as well anyways. Atleast now we get to pick some of them.

 

[SSquirrel]

What about the blow to the back of the head (or the the arm joints or something) with a club? Or similar? A well aimed spear thrust from the shadows? Or yes, even a sneaky dexterous brute swinging a greatsword from an advantageous position (flanked) in combat. My main point is not about whether a greatsword or a halberd though theoretically be used to "sneak attack" with (that would depend on how you define a sneak attack, obviously the text just says 'combat advantage')*SNIP*

There IS a certain amount of surprise factor in someone w/a giant 2H weapon sneak attacking you. You didn't realize that your spleen could appear from your stomach