Ampersand: Sneak Attack

[tomtill]

is this a thread or a tome?

Having just read through the thread, a few thoughts...

1. couldn't some of the weapons represent classes of weapons. The war pick preview listed it as a pick. If pick was in the weapon list, I would assume it includes the war pick. So a shuriken, short sword, etc may represent multiple specific weapons.

2. the Rogue is a striker, one of the defined roles. A martial striker without Thievery is a Ranger, isn't it? I would guess Stealth is also a class skill of the Ranger, which would also include a class skill/power allowing urban/wilderness tracking. I guess people are having trouble designing a swashbuckler type with current 4e info, without any thieving or tracking or stealth skills.

It's a pretty popular type. I'm confident WotC will provide a reasonable class/build that will embrace it.

3. about the whole halfling vs. ogre thing. Remember that halflings and humans and ogres are all different species. Apples and oranges. A 3-4 ft tall chimpanzee is much much much stronger than a human of any size. If believability is the problem, please put your mind at ease.


4. Love it, love it, love it.

 

[Just Another User]

That is a part of a real big question- how will 4E deal with subdual?

Simple, in 4E characters important to the plot never die in combat. just hit him with a fireball and check on him, unless he had nothing important to tell you he will be still alive.

 

[fnwc]

Did anyone else get the impression that Strength is no longer automatically added to melee damage rolls? As I was reading through the descriptions of Brawny Rogue and Trickster Rogue build suggestions, it seemed like the writer felt the only use for Strength for a Trickster Rogue was to use "powers intended for the other rogue build", instead of as a general boost to damage.

Your strength modifier is still probably added to the damage of a standard attack action (if it still exists). However there will be little reason to use a non-power standard attack if you have a superior 'at will' martial power.

I wonder if the powers just deal the listed damage with no other additions? For example, If I use deft strike, do I just deal my weapon damage + my Dexterity modifier?

You should only read the power as explicitly stated. In this case, Def Strike does 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage on a Hit.

 

[Spatula]

The class already caters to the "Brawny Rogue" you describe, which is a step up from 3E.

In what way can you not make a "brutal thug" rogue in 3e?

I guess if you interpret 'sneak attack' as the precise stab with a thin blade to a vital area, it makes sense only to allow it with 'light blades'. But that in itself limits it imo.

That's not even WOTC's interpretation of sneak attacks, given that you can do it with a sling (but not a club!). Or a crossbow bolt, but not an arrow...

Honestly? I think they're trying to discourage everyone just using the weapons that do the most damage. They want different classes to feel different in their weapon and armor choices, and powers that compliment that equipment.

Dagger weilding rogues are iconic, but there wasn't a really good reason to be a dagger using rogue in 3rd edition. You pretty much used a Rapier if going the finesse route, or a greatsword or other big weapon if you were a multi-classed Fighter/Rogue type. And everyone who dual-weilded used two shortswords because that was the optimal choice for most characters.

I don't see any actual change here, as far as your argument goes. Rogues already "felt different" in weapon selection in that they used rapiers (used by no other core martial class) or paired short swords (ditto - since we're optimizing for damage, 2WF rangers would use d8/d6 combos). Now they'll be using daggers (+1 to hit) or short swords (+1 to dmg, assuming daggers are still d4 and short swords are still d6). So we just swapped the rapier for the dagger, basically. Which is fine, but it doesn't make the rogue feel any more different in relation to others classes than it already did. (edit: in terms of weapon selection; the rogue 'powers' obviously give the class a different feel in play)

 

[M.L. Martin]

So why can't rogues wield even a simple club?

We don't know that they can't. It may be that clubs are something that everyone is proficient with.

 

[Spatula]

We don't know that they can't. It may be that clubs are something that everyone is proficient with.

Well, that's a good point, if it turns out to be true. The limitations on sneak attack weaponry remain nonsensical.

 

[am181d]

Well, that's a good point, if it turns out to be true. The limitations on sneak attack weaponry remain nonsensical.

A club is not a precision weapon. A sling is, and iconically so.

(That said, I'm puzzled by some other omissions. Most notably, short bow and rapier. I guess ranger is going to cover precision archer abilities, and -- just a hunch -- I expect rapier will come into the system as a "souped-up short sword" that rogues can upgrade to. It's the only reason I can think of to exclude what's become the main default weapon for most rogues.)

 

[Wolfspider]

A club is not a precision weapon.

Why not?

 

[Mad Mac]

I expect rapier will come into the system as a "souped-up short sword" that rogues can upgrade to. It's the only reason I can think of to exclude what's become the main default weapon for most rogues.)

I think you're right. I'm just glad to see the dagger (And throwing dagger/shurkien) getting a little love. We already know that "Leather Armor" comes in a variety of materials, including Eladrin Leaf Armor, so I don't see why they can't do something similar with weapon groups.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Biggie Smalls, the halfling rogue from WotC_Huscarl's reports on Gleemax uses a hand axe and short sword combo, or a sling. But no hand axe is listed among the rogue's proficiences. And it's unlikely to be a halfling specific weapon. Curious.