An alternate way of looking at stats

[genshou]

It's definitely wrong to simply alter the bonuses provided by the ability scores; they are balanced in their current form. If you want the PCs to be less exceptional and heroic, you can always generate lower scores.

If I were a d20 System character, I wouldn't have a penalty in any ability (yeah, I was very genetically blessed). My lowest conceivable ability score would be Strength, at about a 12. My highest would probably be 16. I'm no Olympean athlete or Einstein by any means, but I'm very far above average. It's true that someone with a 130 IQ is a lot more infrequent than those within the centermost standard deviation (86-114 inclusive), but I don't think the infrequency of a 130+ IQ matches with the infrequency of a 13+ on 3d6. I'm also guessing there are fewer than 1/216 people in the world with a 30 IQ, but I've played a human character with a 3 Int (yes, ouch).

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Ah, no: I'm not trying to make any player happy to roll 3d6 for ability scores.
I'm trying to make players proud of their 13s.

Having a 6 in a stat, that 1 in 1,000 of misfortunate, can make for interesting roleplaying.
Vailante had a 6 intelligence (not dexterity, my memory is failing!)
Vailante I played deliberately as slow and incomprehensive:

DM: You see a bridge in front of you. It looks rickety.
Vailante: Let's charge across.
Party: It's too dangerous.
Vailante: If we charge across, that bridge won't have time to fall. We're too fast for that bridge!

DM: The barroom brawl has been fun, but now the city guard are coming.
The Party: We're getting out, through the back windows.
Vailante: Why are you running? If the city guard joins in, we can restart the brawl.
The Party: We DON'T WANT to brawl with the city guard!
Vailante: Alright you chickens. I'll take em on!

DM: The specters are still coming.
The Cleric: Those incorporeal monsters resisted my Turning.
Vailante: What's 'incorporeal' mean?
The Cleric: They have no physical existence. They can't be physically touched.
Vailante: Whadda mean, they can't be touched? You're firing arrows at them now.
The Cleric: They are beings without substance, without reality on our Plane, except for their Negative Energies.
Vailante: They're negative illusions? Ah, ok. HEY YOU, ILLUSIONS, I DON'T BELIEVE IN YOU. So you can't harm me!

Edena had a 6 dexterity. And he weighed, at one time, 350 pounds. And he wore full plate armor, which weighed 100 pounds.
This lead to two interesting situations:

Party: We go down the narrow, dangerous steps. We put Edena last.
Me: You don't want to do that ...
Party: Yes we do.
DM: Ok, the party heads down the steps, fighters in front, the mage and thief in the middle, and Edena in the rear.
Party: We keep going.
DM: Edena stubs his toe. Edena must make a Dexterity check.
Me: (rolls a 17)
DM: Well, Edena failed his check by 11. He falls, and of course the stairway was narrow, so ... can we say squished?

And this ...

DM: The drow priestess is there, backed against the wall.
Edena: I want her alive! I charge.
Party: We want her dead. We charge.
DM: The party can pull up short to melee. Edena, as you were running forward with full momentum, in armor, make a Dexterity check.
Me: (rolls a 19)
DM: Edena crashes into ... the wall, next to the drow priestess, so hard that the wall cracks. Edena then falls over backwards by her feet. 13 points of damage to Edena.
Me: Ouch. But I grab at the drow's feet! (and rolls a hit)
The Party: Ok, we grab at her head (they roll successful hits)
Edena: I want to save her! I hold her feet. I pull, hard!
The Party: We want to kill her. We hold her head and hair. We pull, hard!
The Drow Priestess, sideways in the air: LOLTH! IT'S AN OUTRAGE.

 

[ARandomGod]

So the player of the fighter can boast of (or, discuss the unusualness of) his fighter's strength of 13.

Thoughts?

My thoughts... it would be interesting... AND that I've rolled 18 on 3d6 before. ... Since I prefer to play in long campaigns, I'd say that if I rolled a character that had an impressive 13, I'd let it die 'heroically' and try again. Because, whatever the actual odds, I know that the 18 is possible. I even 'know' the relative odds, because I've rolled 3d6 many, many times. It won't take me more than 5 or 6 deaths to get SOMEthing better than a 13!


(Edit: previously --> "I've rolled 18 on 3d5 before" ... And THAT was impressive!!)

 

[genshou]

Ah, no: I'm not trying to make any player happy to roll 3d6 for ability scores.
I'm trying to make players proud of their 13s.

I've never had a PC who didn't know he/she was "special" for having a 13+ in an ability score. That magical number allows a character to qualify for a number of feats.

However, a +1 bonus to an attack roll or skill check puts a character "one level" above someone with the lower modifier, so I really don't think it's appropriate to make huge adjustments to the ability scores. The difference between a 5th-level ranger and a 1st-level ranger in Base Attack Bonus is pretty sizable as a modifier, as that's an extra 20% chance to hit against foes with the same AC. It should be the same way with a 10 Strength vs. an 18 (as opposed to a 10 vs. a 13 or 14). As many in my gaming group can tell you, sometimes a little +1 bonus can be a real lifesaver. (One particular elf PC with a 12 Con kept barely making the DC for Fortitude saves, and he'd originally planned to put a 13 in Con and have it reduced to 11 by his racial penalty. That +1 Con bonus saved his life innumerable times.)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Good point. Being able to qualify for certain Feats - and then attaining those Feats - would make a character feel proud of herself.

 

[Tatsukun]

I couldn't resist...

Mensa doesn’t require a certain IQ score. The numbers vary too much from test to test. We require a member to be in the top 2% of their population.

Ok, I feel better now.

That said, the only thing I can add to the argument is that the vast majority of humans have all 10s and 11s. Only a few are better. The PC’s are rare, so they have MUCH higher scores.

In some worlds, a 13 might be huge, for a commoner. For a PC, it’s pretty good (lets you into relevant feats) but it’s not stellar.

-Tatsu

 

[Goolpsy]

What is this game - Dungeons and dragons - about?
Having Fun of course.. but why are we playing this prehistorical d20 game affected by magic which never existed.. instead of playing StoryTeller?(d10) or a d100 system...
Well... We like the rules in d20.. so thats the way it is.... ok
Why are we then playing about magic and greatness back in time.. where people fought eachother with sword and Axe.. instead of gun? Laser gun maybe?
Well First of all... we choose it to be back in time.. we wanted to fight dragons with swords.. being the old wise guy everyone trust.. wanting to do magic..

Roleplaying is about pretenting to be something of which you are not...
You might be dreaming about being able to cast magic, hence you play a Mage or some kind(Sorc, Wiz, Clr)

Alot of people that are roleplaying... are well minded geeks.. and alot of them do that have exceptionel intelligence.. with an IQ above 130...

So.. really.. their 13 int char would just be normal.. just like them..
and as roleplaying in most cases are being better than you are in some strange ways.. that 13 in int just wont cut it...

People wanna be special.. and they are.. only special people do those adventures and survives them. So that skinny geek with ´with the old round glasses, getting beaten up every day at school, might want to imitate his bullier... alot of strenght.. less Intelligence.. just being bigger and better.
His friend across the table with execptionel reading skills might want to be EVEN SMARTER, hence he makes a char with an intelligence of 16+ ...

Another thing is actually roleplaying the chars.. (which can be a problem sometimes, smart people act smart even with a int around 5 ingame), but the important thing, is making them feel supperior to others.. THEY are the ones fighting the dragon AND SURVIVING.. they are the ones being able to cast magic... they are the ones being able to trow a truck around with ease.. cause thats what the game is all about.


You can change the system in anyway you like.. i'll just remind you.. that changing it.. makes you change all the monsters too amoung other things... to that dragon with 52 strenght.. will have 5 more to damage and to hit (acccording to your first table) than the normal version..

Editing the system this drastically ... would leave much better off, by creating a new one. But hack, its your game... im just the geek without the round glasses coming with suggestions

 

[fuindordm]

I've always preferred the C&C/D&D bonus progression myself:

3 -3
4-5 -2
6-8 -1
9-12 average
13-15 +1
16-17 +2
18 +3

If you take this table, then have your players roll 15d2-12, you'll get a much tighter distribution than 3d6 but still limited in the 3-18 range, and I think you'll find them excited to have a 13.

Here are some sample arrays generated using that method:

10 15 9 11 7 9
8 11 14 10 10 12
9 11 11 10 8 13
13 12 10 9 14 14
10 14 11 9 9 8
13 11 10 14 10 14
11 10 7 12 9 8
12 13 13 12 11 10
8 14 10 11 11 10
13 10 10 10 11 7
11 10 12 10 9 10
8 14 8 12 7 12
10 14 13 10 9 9
12 10 13 11 11 12
13 10 10 11 10 10
7 6 9 11 12 11
10 8 10 13 12 13
6 13 10 10 10 10
9 9 12 9 11 10
14 9 11 12 11 12

Ben

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I totally agree with Goolpsy. He's absolutely right, and it's great to rp someone truly special.

I can say is that, if a 13 is so special (as I am making it out to be) then a 15 is REALLY special, and a 17 or 18 truly spectacularly special.
Sometimes, players come to take 17s or 18s for granted. Everyone has a 17 or an 18, so it loses it's uniqueness in their eyes. But it doesn't lose it's uniqueness in my eyes, or in game terms! It's something really special about that character!

I once rolled a character using 3d6, back in days of long ago. Here is what I rolled, and how I interpret it:

Strength: 13 (very special, 1 in 100 ... not shared by the player!)
Intelligence: 14 (genius, IQ 140 ... not shared by the player!)
Wisdom: 17 (world record willpower, incredibly great judgement ... not shared by the player!!)
Dexterity: 6 (crippling clumsiness, not afflicted on the player!!)
Constitution: 10 (average)
Charisma: 16 (incredible charisma ... not shared by the player!)

Not bad for 3d6, no? Considering the odds, not bad at all.

 

[Goolpsy]

I do see what you are trying.. and i hope you succed... Since savage species was published.. a Strenght score haven't been special unless it was above 30...
and other scores have to be better than 25.. (we usually play high level campaigns with players at level +15)

I, myself, am trying to create a new system fitting my needs, and will publish it once it is done.

A tip one player to another: If you want to make it special.. then you really really have to let them roll 3d6 EAch and EVERY time you guys play and make characters.. maybe even give alot of things low requirements to really make it all special..

Another suggestion could be to make it 7 + 1d6 (8 to 13) for character generation.. and they will REALLY appreciate the 13 if they've got one.