An Alternative to Prestige Classes

[airwalkrr]

First of all, prestige classes are cool. I don't really wish to eschew them from the game completely. But I have some really big beefs with them.

1) They are just too good. In most situations, it is a weaker option to stick with a base class than it is to level in a prestige class. Consequently, prestige classes lose much of their prestige.

2) They water down, rather than reinforce archetypes. This is also a problem I have in general with multiclass rules in 3e. It is usually better to pick and choose levels from numerous classes rather than stick with one class. In previous editions, the philosophy was that if you spread your devotion to multiple disciplines, you would be more versatile, but not as good at either as those who stuck with one discipline. 3e turned that notion on its head and now multiclass characters are where the power is at.

3) They are too easy to acquire. The prerequisites usually say very little about the type of character who takes a prestige class. An arcane trickster may have ranks in Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand while at the same time never having made a single skill check with either of those skills.

I'm trying to avoid the blanket answer "if you don't like prestige classes, nothing says you have to allow them." What I would prefer is something more akin to AD&D kits. In other words, prestige classes that are more like variants of existing classes rather than classes in and of themselves. They would still have prerequisites and still grant the same abilities, but it would be as if these benefits were merely supplanting the benefits of your base class. For example, an archmage is still a wizard or sorcerer, but he trades his advancement towards bonus feats and familiar abilities to gain the abilities of an archmage. In a way this would be kind of like treating prestige classes like a feat chain.

This kind of system would make it easier to present your character. Saying "I'm a 15th-level wizard" is much easier and conveys the basic concept of your character's abilities than saying "I'm a 5th-level wizard/3rd-level fatespinner/2nd-level divine oracle/3rd-level mage of the arcane order/2nd-level archmage."

This doesn't entirely address the fact that prestige classes are BETTER than base classes though and the fact that more prestige classes is usually better than one. Perhaps a rule such as delaying your advancement by 1 towards bonus beats every 3rd level and ability score boosts every 4th level for each level you have in a prestige class could address that. Thoughts?

 

[Li Shenron]

The problems you noticed are IMHO the result of the fact that prestige classes were possibly the most fortunate 3ed rules addition from a commercial point of view, of the thing that makes gamers buy the new books etc... the bad effects of it is that there are way many prestige classes, and hence also too many BAD prestige classes.

1) They are just too good. In most situations, it is a weaker option to stick with a base class than it is to level in a prestige class. Consequently, prestige classes lose much of their prestige.

The vast majority of PrCl is more powerful than base classes, true. I wouldn't say that they are too powerful (a few are, and are quite famous). The design rationale is that you have to pay requisites and work forwards for a long time.

2) They water down, rather than reinforce archetypes. This is also a problem I have in general with multiclass rules in 3e. It is usually better to pick and choose levels from numerous classes rather than stick with one class. In previous editions, the philosophy was that if you spread your devotion to multiple disciplines, you would be more versatile, but not as good at either as those who stuck with one discipline. 3e turned that notion on its head and now multiclass characters are where the power is at.

The PrCl itself is a narrow archetype. It takes a generic wizard and should make it a specialist.

The watering down effect is from stacking classes and prestige classes too much. Multiclass rules are quite loose in 3ed, and they become even more loose when gamers demand to ignore the penalties by default.

3) They are too easy to acquire. The prerequisites usually say very little about the type of character who takes a prestige class. An arcane trickster may have ranks in Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand while at the same time never having made a single skill check with either of those skills.

Absolutely true: the designers do NOT know how to design a PrCl requirements! Monte Cook knew, and in fact some of the earliest PrCls like Assassin and Shadowdancer are still considered among the best ever designed.

Typical designer of the last 3-4 years follows this mantra:
- the most important thing is the minimum level at which a character of any class should be able to qualify
- focus on one base class when designing a PrCl, everyone else should have a harder time to qualify

This is widely recognized as a "smart design" but I think it's only a "safe design". It betrays one of the very early concepts of prestige classes, that of being potentially open to everyone. What was only an accidental consequence (that some will find it more difficult to qualify) was turned into a necessity (they must find it difficult).

The result is that you see lots of PrCl whose requisites are like BAB +X and skill rank +Y (in 1-2 skills). What does it mean?
BAB is not something you can choose once your class is set, so for a warrior-type class this is not really a requirement, it's not something you need to "work forward" only to "wait until it comes by itself" For everyone with poor BAB it just says "look for another PrCl".
Quite the same when requiring a single skill but with high ranks: if you have it as a class skill it's dead cheap to get it, if you have it as a cross-class skill you'll probably not get enough rank until level 15+.

What I would prefer is something more akin to AD&D kits. In other words, prestige classes that are more like variants of existing classes rather than classes in and of themselves. They would still have prerequisites and still grant the same abilities, but it would be as if these benefits were merely supplanting the benefits of your base class. For example, an archmage is still a wizard or sorcerer, but he trades his advancement towards bonus feats and familiar abilities to gain the abilities of an archmage. In a way this would be kind of like treating prestige classes like a feat chain.

This kind of system would make it easier to present your character. Saying "I'm a 15th-level wizard" is much easier and conveys the basic concept of your character's abilities than saying "I'm a 5th-level wizard/3rd-level fatespinner/2nd-level divine oracle/3rd-level mage of the arcane order/2nd-level archmage."

I use variant classes from a couple of sources, which I think is very similar to kits, and I gladly work with a player to make a customization when the base class does not allow to represent a concept fully. I am not sure if this could replace PrCls tho, because the two things are quite different. I still think of a PrCl as something that comes later in your life, not early, while I use variants since level 1st.

Particularly, I have a hard time imagining how to have requirements for kits... did you perhaps mean that the kit should "start" at a later level? Let me make an example:
Imagine you don't have the normal wizard specialization rules, and instead you rule that only after a certain level X a wizard could choose to specialize in one school, after he has met some requisites (e.g. Spell Focus and something else). Is this the kind of thing you have in mind? It would have some ideas from PrCls (requisites, being available only later) but technically it would just be advancing in the same class. It's quite a good idea, I think it will have minimal problems rules-wise.

About restrictions, I would be harsher than you and just rule out a limit on 1 prestige class per characters. Maybe 2, and perhaps only after the first was "completed". I never did this because my players never took more than one!

Being a "5th-level wizard/3rd-level fatespinner/2nd-level divine oracle/3rd-level mage of the arcane order/2nd-level archmage" should suck as much as saying "I did high schools/first year of history/two months of medicine/one semester of math/half exam of biology".

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Absolutely true: the designers do NOT know how to design a PrCl requirements! Monte Cook knew, and in fact some of the earliest PrCls like Assassin and Shadowdancer are still considered among the best ever designed.

Typical designer of the last 3-4 years follows this mantra:
- the most important thing is the minimum level at which a character of any class should be able to qualify
- focus on one base class when designing a PrCl, everyone else should have a harder time to qualify

This is widely recognized as a "smart design" but I think it's only a "safe design". It betrays one of the very early concepts of prestige classes, that of being potentially open to everyone. What was only an accidental consequence (that some will find it more difficult to qualify) was turned into a necessity (they must find it difficult).

The result is that you see lots of PrCl whose requisites are like BAB +X and skill rank +Y (in 1-2 skills). What does it mean?
BAB is not something you can choose once your class is set, so for a warrior-type class this is not really a requirement, it's not something you need to "work forward" only to "wait until it comes by itself" For everyone with poor BAB it just says "look for another PrCl".
Quite the same when requiring a single skill but with high ranks: if you have it as a class skill it's dead cheap to get it, if you have it as a cross-class skill you'll probably not get enough rank until level 15+.

I think d20 Modern Advanced Classes have a good approach, though it might be a bit too unique for average D&D. Advanced Classes are Prestige Classes "light" (or more they are like the D&D Core Classes are - archetypical). They can be reached at 4th level if you take the "optimal" route to the PrC, but with little (and not unreasonable) multiclassing or a good Starting Occupation you can take your first level at level 5+. (With no multiclassing an fitting Occupation, it can still be done at level 9).

Strong Heroes have an easy time becoming Martial Artist - they just need 3 ranks of Jump (class skill for them), a BAB of +3 (they have good BAB) and the Combat Martial Artist feat (even a class bonus feat, but available to anyone). A Fast Hero would need to take the Jump ranks as cross-class skill, unless he had the Athlethe Starting Occupation and took Jump as Bonus Class Skill (obviously a reasonable choice to become a martial artist).

 

[Tonguez]

Particularly, I have a hard time imagining how to have requirements for kits...

I think a system of 'Talent Trees' might be workable, or perhaps something based on the Rangers Combat Styles.

So perhaps Archmage is a Feat (with prereqs) which then gives access to Mage Styles which gives both virtual feats and access to certain Talents (which may substitute for Class abilities(?))

Being a "5th-level wizard/3rd-level fatespinner/2nd-level divine oracle/3rd-level mage of the arcane order/2nd-level archmage" should suck as much as saying "I did high schools/first year of history/two months of medicine/one semester of math/half exam of biology".

Hey I have a friend who did that for 11 years! (now he's a computer technician)

 

[Paraxis]

I would use heavy handed training rules if I thought it was getting out of hand in my game. Who wants to pick up that one level of fighter for the bonus feat when the DM makes your character spend months training in the use of all armor types and weapons, and deal with a demanding teacher. Also make prestige classes what they should be, special you need to roleplay through all the getting to know and trials of whatever organization the PRC is set up for. Also In my games no one can have more than two PRC's and getting that second one is if they do is harder than the first because the second group is going to question your split loyalties. No rule changes are needed just make it harder in game for players to break the spirit of the game just because numbers on paper say so.

But as to fixing what you wanted to fix. Make staying in one class more rewarding to the player maybe, if you use action points use the same rules but replace character level with highest class level this will lower multiclass characters number of points per level and how many dice they roll. Other idea would be to make higher level main classes attractive by letting them have access to certain feats others can't like weapon specialization and greater specialization for single class fighters. I was disapointed in PHB2 mastery feats by making them +X BAB instead of fighter levels. Maybe some of the Divine Feats and certain Meta magics are only available with X-levels in base classes.




Joe Gamer to DM-"I just leveled up, I want to take my first level of Arcane Archer."
DM-"No, your characters are in the middle of the sunken temple, and you have never once trained with an Arcane Archer as a character I know in your background your mother was one so you have some understanding of their ways but since you began your carrer as an adventurer you havent seen your elven homeland. Take another level in fighter or wizard."
Joe Gamer-"Thats not fair, I meet all the requirements for taking the class, it says so right here in the DMG, I should be allowed to take it!"
DM-"Yeah, I noticed you said DMG, lets look up golden rule of gaming while you are in there. This is a role-playing game not a ROLL playing game ohh and I saw you eyeing Order of the Bow a moment ago don't even think about it won't ever happen with same character,all you want is a 2 level did so you don't provoke AoO when using bow."

This should stop the problems you are having. To many people with 3.5 more than ever have turned to game into a mini game with advancing rules for the mini's. When the only role-playing is done when characters sell and buy magic items at the local spell-mart something is wrong. Not saying this is going on in your game but it is a problem I see alot.

Hope things go well in your game.

 

[Imban]

The problem with what Paraxis is suggesting is that several character builds really do rely on taking the right feats or classes at the right time. A DM suddenly saying "Well, I know I didn't give you previous warning, but you can't take this class now." might as well be saying "Well, your character is screwed. Have a nice day." One of the problems I have with 3.5e D&D is that gaining a level can be a very bad thing, especially if it's the "wrong" level. (Like, oh, having levels of Commoner for any PC, even though it grants you extra HP and possibly saves/BAB if you have enough.)

If Joe Gamer had every expectation of being able to take Arcane Archer at level 6 (not unreasonable, given that you said it was even in his background!), you could easily have seen his first five levels in fighter and wizard as his training for it.

As far as the two-level dip in Order of the Bow Initiate goes, there is where you could start asking questions. Maybe he doesn't really like the Order of the Bow Initiate's background, but believes his character is someone who would never be inexpert enough with a bow to allow some jerk with a sword to cut his face off while he was trying to shoot. Maybe he really just wants to join the Order of the Bow because they sound awesome.

If it's the latter, why not let him? He's probably an actual roleplayer, and wouldn't mind RPing out a session where he finds out about and joins the Order of the Bow.

If it's the former, you could deny it out of hand, but I posit that a better way to deal with these things is to talk things over with him, asking what he wants to get from Order of the Bow Initiate. Look at what he wants, and compare it to what he would get otherwise. If it would add flavor (or even power, if he's below the curve of the rest of the party) to his character but not make his character any stronger than the others he's playing with, I believe you should let him have it.

Not allowing characters to be overpowered is fine - no one likes to sit there and listen to the munchkin sing Everything You Can Do during their turns. What I'm afraid some of these restrictions do is not allow characters to be unique, cool, and flavorful.

 

[airwalkrr]

Particularly, I have a hard time imagining how to have requirements for kits... did you perhaps mean that the kit should "start" at a later level?

Yea, that is more or less what I was talking about. For example a fighter stops gaining bonus feats for a while to start gaining prestige class abilities.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Yea, that is more or less what I was talking about. For example a fighter stops gaining bonus feats for a while to start gaining prestige class abilities.

I don't understand how this is fundamentally different from prestige classes -- how would this example be different from a PrC requiring X levels in fighter (along with whatever else it requires)?

 

[drexes]

My suggestion is NOT the 'if you don't like it, cut it' philosophy because the game is in point of a fact a group activity made to be fun for a group and what you don't like someone else in your group may. What I would suggest is something that has worked pretty well in my campaigns and that is concentrating on the fluff. To me the crunch of anything is secondary, I just want it to reinforce the type of character I'm trying to portray through role-playing. You pointed out originally that prestige classes muddle the archetypes. I guess I don't really see that as a bad thing. I don't like archetypes, to me they lead to stereotypes which seem to stifle originality. Another thing we do, which is somewhat strange, is that we build new prestige classes if we feel a character would be better expressed through a unique skill set. Obviously not every prestige class has an organization, so we don't force it. If I were playing a character with a somewhat peculiar set of abilities and experiences and wanted a prestige class that focused on them and couldn't find one, I would sit down and try and come up with the basic idea of what I am looking for and then work through making it with my DM and fellow players. In this manner, if I were playing a guy who has been arrested and captured more times than he can count but always seems to find an escape, well then I could write up some kind of idea that incorporated survival, escape artist, and open locks into a unique blend that fit what I was trying to accomplish. Maybe I'd call it Macgyver...hehe. Just Kidding. My group focuses less on the crunch requirements than on the fluff ones and it has always worked well for us.

Drexes

 

[ValhallaGH]

Yea, that is more or less what I was talking about. For example a fighter stops gaining bonus feats for a while to start gaining prestige class abilities.

Why not make the prestige abilities into Fighter bonus feats? That way he can spend his class features on the features of the prestige class. Also, the abilities now have to be balanced against all his other options for bonus feats, solving two of your problems at once.