An Alternative to Prestige Classes

[TYPO5478]

You may like what my DM did a couple of campaigns ago. He created organizations our characters could join. Then, by spending experience, we could learn different abilities from these organizations. Some of the abilities were just like feats while others were made up specifically for the organization. Only one or two abilities were available per character level, they had to be taken in a particular order, and each organization had around 8 to 12 abilities total. Experience costs increased for each successive ability, though I don't remember exactly what the progression was. That way, our characters could continue progressing in their respective classes, but could also gain abilities not granted by the class by spending experience (and time for training, of course).

For example, one trick my Stalker (Soverign Stone) learned was called Parry: at the beginning of a round of combat, he could sacrifice one attack at his highest BAB; if he did so, he would roll an opposed check against the first melee attack that hit him that round; success meant that he parried the blow and it dealt no damage. I don't know if that's analogous to any particular feat, but I've never heard of one like it. As I recall, that ability cost about 1,100 XP, and I got it around character level 10. It saved my butt a few times, too.

Another ability he got (don't remember the name) allowed him to spend a full-round action to make one attack against a foe. A hit would deal no damage (I think, but maybe it did) but blinded the foe for 1d4 rounds. It didn't work against anyone wearing any serious headgear (a helm, mask, faceplate or such). The idea was that he had cut their head in such a way that blood ran into their eyes, making it difficult to see.

One of the first abilities he got was Quick Draw (as the feat). I think that only cost about 300 XP.

You could change any of the details, such as doing away with the progressive path of abilities or dedication to a particular group. The main idea is being able to purchase special abilities by spending experience.

 

[drexes]

Hey Typo, I would be intersted in seeing a list of what he came up with if you can get one I would appreciate it.

Drexes

 

[atom crash]

You may like what my DM did a couple of campaigns ago. He created organizations our characters could join. Then, by spending experience, we could learn different abilities from these organizations. Some of the abilities were just like feats while others were made up specifically for the organization. Only one or two abilities were available per character level, they had to be taken in a particular order, and each organization had around 8 to 12 abilities total. Experience costs increased for each successive ability, though I don't remember exactly what the progression was. That way, our characters could continue progressing in their respective classes, but could also gain abilities not granted by the class by spending experience (and time for training, of course).

IIRC, this sounds similar to a concept used in Fantasy Flight Games' Path of the Sword, an early fighter-type supplement for D&D3E. You may want to check out that book and the rest of the Path of... series if you have access to them for inspiration.

For the OP, I don't use PrC's much in my campaign because most don't really fit the tone of my campaign (plus I think many are kind of dumb, there are too many of them, and I don't see the reason behind giving out mechanical bonuses and alternate abilities for joining an organization, but all that's for a different discussion), but I use the heck out of alternate class abilities -- such as the ones presented in PHBII, the specialist wizards in Unearthed Arcana and the alternate class abilities that are often featured in Dragon Magazine's Class Acts.

You might even want to work up some class levels of your own with variant abilities or bonus feats, kind of like racial substitution levels (or even racial paragon levels) with special abilities you'd like to see in your game.

 

[cradledrapture]

I dont think I understand. I know you want limits, but why change rules you wont be using anyways. I do agree though, some prestige classes are a bit insane...like soul eaters. Perhaps just spread the prestige class abilities out over 20 levels instead of 10. Then you get the watered down version you want, and the others get to be what they want.

Im using emoticons now since you think everyone who disagrees with you is angry. Just a precaution to avoid the spew of assumption.

 

[Nyaricus]

No idea if this will help, but Classically Modern is an interesting system which combines D&D and d20 Modern into one system. Worth a looksie, at least.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Most PRCs can essentially be broken down into feats.
Many games now give characters more feats that what is normally alloted in the PHB (some people give 1 every level, some 1 every odd, in our group we've started giving 2 at level 1, 2 at level 3 and 2 every 3 levels there after instead of 1).

Any way the point is make prestige classes into sets of prestigious feats instead (for instance the Guild of the Crimson Star Warriors instead of being a PRC they would train people in particular special feats).
PCs must pass certain test in order to receive training or to learn the prestigious feat.
This method might also work by turning some PRC abilities into special substitution abilities.

This addresses the balance issue because you have to give up taking other feats to gain prestigious feats (instead of just getting tons of relativley free abilities). Unfortunately this method would proably only work most effectively in groups that hand out extra feats to PCs.
Hope all of that made sense.


As an aside; I do not think 3.X multiclassing is broken, it is proably the least broken part of the system, most classes give up a lot by giving up their higher levels for low levels in other classes but it is usually a fair trade.

 

[Imban]

Actually, on a re-read of the thread, I noticed a few things about the OPs post that I don't necessarily agree with, and I wanted to address them.

1) They are just too good. In most situations, it is a weaker option to stick with a base class than it is to level in a prestige class. Consequently, prestige classes lose much of their prestige.

Some base classes are just really, really bland. Clerics and Sorcerors, for example, both have absolutely no class features after first level other than spellcasting, so any full divine/arcane spellcasting prestige class gives them more class features, and thus usually more power. I don't really see this as "taking away from the prestige" of prestige classes, since it makes them classes that people who are any good usually have at least one of. Wouldn't making them overtly gimped options that only the stupid take hurt their prestige more?

Sure, you and every other high-level fighter might be a Frenzied Berserker, but that's just it - the prestige comes from it being what the people who are actually any good use.

2) They water down, rather than reinforce archetypes. This is also a problem I have in general with multiclass rules in 3e. It is usually better to pick and choose levels from numerous classes rather than stick with one class. In previous editions, the philosophy was that if you spread your devotion to multiple disciplines, you would be more versatile, but not as good at either as those who stuck with one discipline. 3e turned that notion on its head and now multiclass characters are where the power is at.

Having any sort of options really "waters down archetypes" since it means there are hundreds of actual, viable choices, rather than seven. I don't really see this as a bad thing, since optimized multiclassing is really sticking with one discipline in a way. Sure, your character sheet might have all sorts of crazy class names and feats on it, but in the end your character still has a single discipline - while multiclass characters can certainly have the power, it's almost always in the form of specialization, rather than the ability to do everything under the sun.

3) They are too easy to acquire. The prerequisites usually say very little about the type of character who takes a prestige class. An arcane trickster may have ranks in Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand while at the same time never having made a single skill check with either of those skills.

Half of this seems weird, whereas the other half is a different problem I have with prestige classes. The half that seems weird is Sleight of Hand - considering that one of the Arcane Trickster's class features improves Sleight of Hand, Disable Device, and Open Lock, it seems odd that you would have ranks in it without planning on using it, especially considering it's not a prerequisite.

The other half is that prestige class prerequisites don't always match up with the sort of character who might be interested in taking this class. For example, the Arcane Trickster requires 7 ranks in Decipher Script. It doesn't matter if you're not one for trying to figure out the funny writing on the temple wall, and are a magic-using halfling trickster, you need to have 7 ranks in Decipher Script. Invisible Blade is one that really bothers me with this.

It is likely that prestige class prerequisites are only mechanical because roleplay-specific prerequisites are very campaign setting-specific. D&D books not written for any specific setting really do need to be generic - otherwise, most prestige classes would be somewhere between incredibly difficult and completely impossible to acquire in a normal game.

(Of course, if you're just accusing people of taking PrCs for abilities where the flavor doesn't match, just call them on it - especially in a long-running campaign, questions like "Do you honestly think (character name) can call himself a holy warrior of (god) right now?" are perfectly valid.)

 

[TYPO5478]

Hey Typo, I would be intersted in seeing a list of what he came up with if you can get one I would appreciate it.

Drexes

I'll see what I can do. He's actually got an account here, although I don't think he uses it very often. Maybe I can get him to post his stuff.

 

[airwalkrr]

Why not make the prestige abilities into Fighter bonus feats? That way he can spend his class features on the features of the prestige class. Also, the abilities now have to be balanced against all his other options for bonus feats, solving two of your problems at once.

That actually works pretty well for fighter-based prestige classes. But what if a Barbarian wants to join? Or what if we are talking about a loremaster?

 

[airwalkrr]

You may like what my DM did a couple of campaigns ago. He created organizations our characters could join. Then, by spending experience, we could learn different abilities from these organizations. Some of the abilities were just like feats while others were made up specifically for the organization.

That actually sounds like a really good idea. I would probably adapt it a little bit though. To me, it seems like XP expenditure is nothing but a set-back as opposed to a true cost because in 3.5 the XP system is self-correcting and you will eventually catch up. So after a while, it is like you have gained something for nothing. I would probably charge gp rather than xp (to represent fees of membership and use of facilities or something) since gp rewards are not self-correcting. But still that is a pretty good idea.

I could even make prestige classes cost gp for training. That could be interesting and would accomplish what I want to by giving them a bigger cost.