An alternative to the dreaded haste

[demiurgeastaroth]

So, using a full-round action the arcane caster can cast a normal spell, and extra iterative spells, maximum 4 levels lower.

It's easiest explained by examples:

Under this system a 10th level Wizard could cast, using a FRA, one spell of up to 5th level, and one spell of up to 1st level

A 20th level Wizard could cast (up to) a 9th, 5th, 1st

Comments?

One possible problem: with mutliple melee/ranged attacks, those subsequent attacks tend to fail. With iterative casting, each spell after the first is just as likely to succeed as the first.
If such a system were used, it would probably be a good idea to incorporate some sort of system to make this uncertain. Say, a concentration roll on each spell after the first, requiring a DC of 20+spell level for the second, and 30+spell level for the third.
Those numbers were picked out of my head, but I think they give a roughly equal chance of success or failure when the option first becomes available (9th and 17th).
I'd be happy making spell level a much more significant factor, though.

Rather than iterative casting, though, if I wanted to allow spellcasters to cast more spells in round, I'd look at making Quicken a little easier to use (and keep the no-sorcerer rule: sorcerers are too powerful if they gain the ability to somehow spontaneously quicken).

Darren

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Heroic Surge

With 3.5e Haste, and the Sorcerer's inability to use Quicken Spell without taking Spell Preparation, I'm considering a slightly different approach: Porting over the Heroic Surge feat, as presented in d20 modern, Star Wars d20, and Wheel of Time d20.

What are the prerequisites for Heroic Surge? And do you get the extra times per day purely based on level or do you need to buy heroic surge more than once.

Darren

 

[Unseenlibrarian]

Re: Re: Heroic Surge

What are the prerequisites for Heroic Surge? And do you get the extra times per day purely based on level or do you need to buy heroic surge more than once.

Darren

From the d20 Modern SRD:

Heroic Surge
Benefit: The character may take an extra move action or attack action in a round, either before or after the character’s regular actions. The character may use Heroic Surge a number of times per day depending on his or her character level (as shown below), but never more than once per round.
Character Level Times per Day
1st–4th 1
5th–8th 2
9th–12th 3
13th–16th 4
17th–20th 5

No pre-requisites at all, as can be seen, and no mention of taking it multiple times.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Re: Heroic Surge

From the d20 Modern SRD:

Heroic Surge
<snip>

Thanks. I wonder how many characters don't take it... Looks like a must-have.

Darren

 

[Bauglir]

Whatever happened to "wizards are ridiculously overpowered at high levels, there's no reason to be a fighter past level 10?" Fighters are SUPPOSED to be the heavy damage dealers, if you take that away, you make silly arguments like "wizards are too powerful" actually true.

That's just not true. While it's true that a 1v1 fight between a wizard and a fighter would go the wizard's way most often (the reason most people have formed this impression IMO) I'm more concerned about the performance of the wizard fighting alongside the fighter, against monsters with an array of abilities such as Elemental Resistances and Spell Resistance. If the fighter is truly the heavy damage dealer, how do you justify the fighter's access to the second highest hit dice, and to the best armour, alongside the wizard's lowest hit dice and NO armour?

If you want to encourage evocation big boom high level spells rather than save or die spells, why don´t you simply increase the damage die of spells like cone of cold, delayed blast fireball, chain lightning, horrid wilting... rather than the iterative casting rule? Keep in mind that a high level wizard could perfectly cast Polymorph other and a Power Word with that system, and seems that you won´t like it.

I considered it, but decided that I didn't want to increase the power of the spells, just increase the effectiveness of the caster a bit. It costs more to cast 2 spells in a round; (ie it costs one more spell) but at high levels this ability can allow the caster things like another chance at getting through spell resistance (A big problem with high level play, from a caster's POV). As for the option of casting a power word then a polymorph; yes the caster could do that, but the saving throw on the polymorph is at a -4 compared to the save on a single SOD spell of highest level (say a heightened finger of death), so is unlikely to succeed - i.e. it's probably not the best use of iterative casting. Hmmm - I'll have a look at the saves of some appropriate CR monsters and cook up some figures on how the usage of SOD casted iteratively increases effectiveness. My feeling is that it isn't much.

One possible problem: with mutliple melee/ranged attacks, those subsequent attacks tend to fail. With iterative casting, each spell after the first is just as likely to succeed as the first.
If such a system were used, it would probably be a good idea to incorporate some sort of system to make this uncertain. Say, a concentration roll on each spell after the first, requiring a DC of 20+spell level for the second, and 30+spell level for the third.
Those numbers were picked out of my head, but I think they give a roughly equal chance of success or failure when the option first becomes available (9th and 17th).
I'd be happy making spell level a much more significant factor, though.

Well if a fighter's second, third or fourth iterative attack DOES land then it's 100% as effective as the first. Iterative spells however are lower level than the 'main' spell and so will be less effective. This was, I considered, a sufficient balance. You could consider the -4 to save DC equivalent to the -5 to attack, if you like.

 

[TheMaque]

. If the fighter is truly the heavy damage dealer, how do you justify the fighter's access to the second highest hit dice, and to the best armour, alongside the wizard's lowest hit dice and NO armour?



Wizards also generaly have range over fighters who nine times out of ten have to be face to face with whatever big baddie is trying to eat them. Wizards in my game generaly keep the idea of self presevation number 1 and stay out of the range for most monsters. Wizards who invest some higher level spells to defence as well as offence can somtimes narrow that gap quite a bit.

 

[DreamChaser]

the difficulty I have with this entire discussion is that it assumes that a character has to be the best and dishing out damage to be worth anything.

Let's compare more things, shall we.

The party faces a dragon...
the fighter uses his bow to attack from range and then closes with his melee weapon once he gets within the dragons threat.
the wizard lobs spells at the dragon (dealing with SR of course)

the party needs to get somewhere in a hurry...
the fighter hires a wizard or gets on a horse
the wizard casts teleport

the party is trying to get information out of someone...
the fighter intimidates them
the wizard casts detect thoughts

and so on and so forth.

more than damage is multiplied by iterative casting. imagine the wizard in combat casting damage spells, teleporting, protecting, invisiblity, etc.

I think its a bad idea.

DC

 

[Chacal]

Interesting idea, but using it as an ability is too powerful. If it was a spell, like haste, at least it could be dispelled or countered.

How about changing the old haste with:
gives an extra attack, move-eq action or spellcasting up to one third of the caster level. A 9th wiz wouldn't cast 2 5th level spells, but only a 5th and a 3rd.

By adding a quite common house rule ( casting haste requires a full round action, or even making hast a full round spell), you can have a quite tone down haste that still looks like the 3e one.


Chacal

 

[Bauglir]

Dreamchaser - what I'd like to do is generate a system where a wizard CAN fill the damage dealer role. Under core rules imo, damage spells fast become inviable as the wizard gets higher level. Elemental and Spell resistances often make save or die effects, and buffs the only sensible choice. I'd rather avoid seeing combat decided on the strength of a single spell, or have casters unable to directly participate, and encourage casters to start looking at damage spells again.

As far as utility goes, yes the wizard will be stronger, but don't discount items such as a helm of teleportation.

As for multiple effects such as teleportation, under 3e many of these spells have built-in limitations, for example in the Dimension Door description: "After using this spell, the character can’t take any other actions until the character's next turn."

At high levels, thanks to SR a wizard may find themselves having zero effect on an encounter. It's not a pleasant feeling spending a combat using up spells to do absoultely nothing; at least with iterative casting a wizard could get more chances to bat, so to speak. A fighter on the other had will rarely pass a round without landing a hit at least once, and they don't 'use up' their attacks.

Chacal: Perhaps - What if iterative casting could be activated by a 5th level spell, lasting a round per level, and coming into effect the round after it is cast?

 

[totoro]

IMNSHO, the best fix for haste would have been to raise the level of the spell to 5th? and clarify what it does in the spell description. It seems a shame that it goes from speeding you up to giving you another attack. I prefer the version that just speeds you up, with all the advantages that entails.

The spell as it has been modified sounds more like Rapid Strike than Haste.