An Appreciation of Savage Rifts

[Retreater]

@Derren requested in a previous thread (about sci-fi RPGs) some information about the Savage Worlds version of Rifts and to compare/contrast it with the original Palladium Rifts. While I don't claim to be an expert in either system, I have run a dozen or so game with Savage Rifts and have only read through the Core book of the Palladium Rifts (though I have run other Palladium games in the past).
So in general, the Palladium system (across multiple products such as Rifts, Fantasy, After the Bomb/TMNT, Ninjas & Superspies, et al.) functions at a TSR/AD&D level of game design. The core mechanic has not been updated since 1990 or so, and some critics say that shows. There is a weird hodgepodge of percentile dice for skill checks, d20 for attacks (with great rolls doing damage to HP, average rolls doing damage to armor, and poor rolls missing completely), then there is a chance to parry, dodge, etc. Depending on your training you can get multiple activations in a turn, so you can make multiple attacks, dodge several enemies, etc. [Like some characters can get upwards of 5 activations.]
Another thing about Palladium Rifts is the Occupations system. It's not "quite" as rigid as a D&D class system, but it definitely includes a suite of skills and powers your character gets. There are also different categories of weapons, some dealing regular damage while others (like vehicle weapons) do a different category of damage that can basically vaporize regular human infantry.
The constant between Palladium and Savage Worlds Rifts is the excellent setting (not to mention fantastic art). Magic, High Technology, Psionics, Horror, and other genres all exist in the post-apocalyptic Rifts setting. (The Savage Rifts grafts on a "goody two-shoes" faction in the original Palladium world that would be described as a bleak hellscape, destroyed in a war between high tech fascists and open door demon-worshipers.)
Mechanically, Savage Rifts uses the Savage Worlds system, which possesses a unified mechanic (reaching a target number of 4 on a die roll, with your increase in skill being reflected in larger die types - and therefore easier to reach the 4.) Occupations are still there, so is Mega-Damage. With the generic rules set and various setting books, it's easy to port over any genre from Savage Worlds to build Savage Rifts the way you want.
It's also extremely swingy. A minion can (and does) take out a heroic character with one attack. Or a basic hero armed with the right weapon can just chop through a convoy of tanks (which has happened in my game). Be prepared for ridiculous, over-the-top scenes that look like art that would be airbrushed on the side of a van parked at a Blue Oyster Cult concert.
So if you have other questions, feel free to post. I'll try to answer as best as my (limited) knowledge can address.

 

[Derren]

I am mostly interested in how the flavour differs in both versions of the game. Savage World does tone done the balance differences somewhat and also assumes that all the PCs are part of their goody goody organisation which is quite a contrast to how open Palladium Rifts is.

Its a bit hard to put into words, but how does the "feeling" of SW Rifts differ from the original Rifts?

 

[Voadam]

(The Savage Rifts grafts on a "goody two-shoes" faction in the original Palladium world that would be described as a bleak hellscape, destroyed in a war between high tech fascists and open door demon-worshipers.)

Can you describe this group a bit?

I figured the lore would all be the same so since I do not play Savage World it would not really add much to the lore of the base books. But this is new and a departure and now the default assumption?

 

[Azuresun]

I am mostly interested in how the flavour differs in both versions of the game. Savage World does tone done the balance differences somewhat and also assumes that all the PCs are part of their goody goody organisation which is quite a contrast to how open Palladium Rifts is.

Rifts always had "big good" factions (New Navy, Psyscape, Lazlo, most Cyber-Knights even after the split, etc), so that's not terribly new.

Its a bit hard to put into words, but how does the "feeling" of SW Rifts differ from the original Rifts?

Overall, I think it's far, far better than the original in capturing the gonzo action-movie feel of the setting. I was able to open my campaign with the PC's fighting fifteen Coalition soldiers and ten Skelebots and thanks to the rules for extras, it was over in less than an hour. Likewise, Savage Worlds systems such as chases, mass combat or Dramatic Tasks really do a good job of setting up those big dramatic scenes, such as a a chase with the PC's in a techno-wizard monster truck dodging Coalition sky cycles through the ruins of Tolkeen. It's the sowrt of awesomeness that Palladium Rifts was about on paper, but which never really delivered on due to fiddly rules.

The swinginess of combat most affected the big things, and I think that's where SW starts to break down. I wouldn't advise using PC's or enemies with Toughness + Armour values of over 30, since that's where the numbers start to break down and it turns a bit all-or-nothing where two big scary things slap ineffectually at each other until very suddenly, the damage dice all open-end and someone suddenly explodes. oRifts had a major problem with numbers inflation leading to dull and grindy combat, this has the opposite problem.

Characters feel a lot more distinct now. Ley line walkers can draw on leylines as a free action, dramatically increasing their power when they can arrange to fight on one. Juicers have "burn" that may decrease at the start of each session, and which they can risk losing to boost a critical dice roll--but when it hits zero, they will unavoidably die before the end of the session. Techno-wizards have a much more solid system behind converting and enhancing weapons and vehicles, and so on.

Can you describe this group a bit?

I figured the lore would all be the same so since I do not play Savage World it would not really add much to the lore of the base books. But this is new and a departure and now the default assumption?

The "Tomorrow Legion" was founded by a clan of dwarves on the ruins of a castle in the wilderness between Federation of Magic and Coalition territory. After the Tolkeen war ended, it took in a lot of refugees, and under the guidance of Lord Coake and others, it evolved into a relatively small regional power that stands against both of the big boys and any other threats to the world. The default assumption is that the PC's are agents of the Legion, investigating weird stuff and protecting communities that are under the Legion's umbrella.

I like it. It offers an easy-to-understand starting point for PC's, puts a bit of light back into the setting and because it's local, it's easy to ignore if you'd rather run a game with a more old-school premise.

 

[Derren]

Rifts always had "big good" factions (New Navy, Psyscape, Lazlo, most Cyber-Knights even after the split, etc), so that's not terribly new.

Yes, but Palladium RIfts never had the assumption that you work for one of those groups. Although yes, the expectation was that the PCs are more good than bad...

Overall, I think it's far, far better than the original in capturing the gonzo action-movie feel of the setting. I was able to open my campaign with the PC's fighting fifteen Coalition soldiers and ten Skelebots and thanks to the rules for extras, it was over in less than an hour. Likewise, Savage Worlds systems such as chases, mass combat or Dramatic Tasks really do a good job of setting up those big dramatic scenes, such as a a chase with the PC's in a techno-wizard monster truck dodging Coalition sky cycles through the ruins of Tolkeen. It's the sowrt of awesomeness that Palladium Rifts was about on paper, but which never really delivered on due to fiddly rules.

Gonzo yes, but doesn't that remove a bit of the danger from Palladium Rifts? The Coalition is, when I see it right, not supposed to be random mooks you kill by the dozen, but there was a reason the CS controlled large parts of North America. Granted, normal soldiers and skelebots are not the most powerful soldiers, but still fighting 25 of them right at the start of the game does sound quite a shift in power. In Palladium you would have needed to have multiple Glitterboys and dragons in the group to pull this of.

What about besides the combat? What are the differences there between SW and Palladium?

 

[Retreater]

Gonzo yes, but doesn't that remove a bit of the danger from Palladium Rifts? The Coalition is, when I see it right, not supposed to be random mooks you kill by the dozen, but there was a reason the CS controlled large parts of North America. Granted, normal soldiers and skelebots are not the most powerful soldiers, but still fighting 25 of them right at the start of the game does sound quite a shift in power. In Palladium you would have needed to have multiple Glitterboys and dragons in the group to pull this of.

Maybe you could get a similar effect by not using them as mooks. Make them all wild cards and that would up the challenge significantly.

 

[Azuresun]

Yes, but Palladium RIfts never had the assumption that you work for one of those groups. Although yes, the expectation was that the PCs are more good than bad...

I appreciate having a starting point, and there's nothing in the books that really forces the PC's to be a part of the group.

Gonzo yes, but doesn't that remove a bit of the danger from Palladium Rifts? The Coalition is, when I see it right, not supposed to be random mooks you kill by the dozen, but there was a reason the CS controlled large parts of North America. Granted, normal soldiers and skelebots are not the most powerful soldiers, but still fighting 25 of them right at the start of the game does sound quite a shift in power. In Palladium you would have needed to have multiple Glitterboys and dragons in the group to pull this of.

First up, if you look at the art and fiction in the oRifts books, it's often depicted as being much more dangerous than what the game system actually produced. Off the top of my head, Federation of Magic has fiction with Coalition soldiers getting one-shot, there's a fiction excerpt where Erin Tarn's bodyguard takes out a power armour suit in three or so swings of a psi-sword, and the Triax comic has robot vehicles losing limbs and gargoyles getting gibbed in one or two hits. It's worth noting even with all the enemies using autofire and needing to open-end their d6 or d8 shooting to hit, the PC's did take some hits.

Second, the combat had a Dragon and Burster on the PC's side (so a lot of big AOE attacks), along with a Mystic who could stun several of them a turn, plus the PC's had the advantage of cover. And when a certain number had been taken out, the survivors fled and called in a Hellraiser robot as heavy support. It was intentionally skewed so I could figure out the capabilities of the PC's, and let them feel like badasses. A later big set-piece combat (defending a town against a mob of Brodkil and their Neuron Beast boss) was much less one-sided.

And lastly, the extras system is designed to replicate cinematic combat. It's like how in Star Wars, regular Stormtroopers aren't expected to be a serious threat to the PC's unless they get lucky--but once Darth Vader or Captain Phasma shows up, they're in a bit more trouble. And most of the time, those Stormtroopers will be fighting rebel extras, not protagonists.

 

[Derren]

I appreciate having a starting point, and there's nothing in the books that really forces the PC's to be a part of the group.



First up, if you look at the art and fiction in the oRifts books, it's often depicted as being much more dangerous than what the game system actually produced. Off the top of my head, Federation of Magic has fiction with Coalition soldiers getting one-shot, there's a fiction excerpt where Erin Tarn's bodyguard takes out a power armour suit in three or so swings of a psi-sword, and the Triax comic has robot vehicles losing limbs and gargoyles getting gibbed in one or two hits. It's worth noting even with all the enemies using autofire and needing to open-end their d6 or d8 shooting to hit, the PC's did take some hits.

Second, the combat had a Dragon and Burster on the PC's side (so a lot of big AOE attacks), along with a Mystic who could stun several of them a turn, plus the PC's had the advantage of cover. And when a certain number had been taken out, the survivors fled and called in a Hellraiser robot as heavy support. It was intentionally skewed so I could figure out the capabilities of the PC's, and let them feel like badasses.

And lastly, the extras system is designed to replicate cinematic combat. It's like how in Star Wars, regular Stormtroopers aren't expected to be a serious threat to the PC's unless they get lucky--but once Darth Vader or Captain Phasma shows up, they're in a bit more trouble. And most of the time, those Stormtroopers will be fighting rebel extras, not protagonists.

Doesn't having a dragon automatically mean you get into "numbers break down" territory?

 

[wingsandsword]

Be prepared for ridiculous, over-the-top scenes that look like art that would be airbrushed on the side of a van parked at a Blue Oyster Cult concert.

For better or worse, this is the best summary of Rifts I've ever seen.

Also, I thought Palladium Games was notoriously hostile to anyone discussing playing their settings with another system.

I know that in the early 2000's, message boards that even had people talking about a fan-made d20 conversion got hit with cease-and-desist letters from Palladium, as they made it very clear they inherently opposed the very concept of playing their games with any system other than their own and considered that to be some kind of abuse of their IP rights. Has that changed, or is ENWorld just ignoring the nastygrams from Kevin Siembieda that a thread like this might create?

 

[Derren]

For better or worse, this is the best summary of Rifts I've ever seen.

Also, I thought Palladium Games was notoriously hostile to anyone discussing playing their settings with another system.

I know that in the early 2000's, message boards that even had people talking about a fan-made d20 conversion got hit with cease-and-desist letters from Palladium, as they made it very clear they inherently opposed the very concept of playing their games with any system other than their own and considered that to be some kind of abuse of their IP rights. Has that changed, or is ENWorld just ignoring the nastygrams from Kevin Siembieda that a thread like this might create?

The Savage World version of Rifts is official and was endorsed by Siembieda, so no danger there. It was quite a sensation when it was announced.