An E# tweak

[radmod]

Truthfully, because of laziness and time, I have only scanned the E# concept. I really love the idea. However, thinking from pre-3.x experiences I got an idea. Please forgive the long setup.

Setup:
Remember before 3.x how characters had to 'train' their experience? For example, to gain an actual level we settled on a PC having to train their experience for a period of 2 wks. + 1 wk./2 levels. This created unintended consequences:
1) Book-keeping. My worlds actually had days, weeks, months, etc. so I had to keep track of time.
2) PCs who were not training objected to the idea that they had to sit around waiting for other people to train. Logically, they argued, they would still go out adventuring, especially when 2/3rds of the party wasn't training.
3) This meant that players had multiple characters. What about experience for characters who, because of the limitation that you could only play one or two PCs at a time, weren't adventuring? In addition, at least one world had a period of time in which you could not adventure; was there any experience gained in that time?. My solution was to allow PCs who a player couldn't play gained daily experience based on their primary stat(s).

Now, also consider the idea of age. The age old question: why wasn't it that elves and dwarves with their extremely long life spans were not far, far higher in levels than mere humans? Did they just retire at early ages? That seems unlikely for the elven wizard who only cares to research magic.

My idea for a tweak to E# campaigns. Unfortunately, it involves book-keeping.
When a PC maxes out a level, he starts a whole new experience record (fxp) for feats. Any experience gained adventuring goes into fxp.
After maxing out, a PC can no longer gain adventuring xp to his character levels, but still gains life xp. This 'life' xp could be daily, weekly, whatever and would be based on primary stats, or simply some arbitrary number.
I haven't decided on any hard numbers but let's say something like 10 xp/week + primary stat bonus. Thus a wiz with an 18 INT would get 14/week = 728/year. Humans would get their standard +1 (like skills).
Thus, a human wiz who maxes out at 6th level by age 20 would get 780 xp/year. By the time he turns 60, he's the incredibly high 10th level.
Even a similar elf by the time he's 250 would be the uber-powerful 20th level.
Of course, this only works, is even remotely applicable, if you use time and age as a factor in your worlds.

Any thoughts?

 

[ValhallaGH]

Seems to entirely miss the point of the E6/8/10 level cap system. E6 started with this essay, and sits on the premise that the typical person in a fantasy world is a level 1 or 2 Commoner, and that a 5th level PC can equal or exceed the greatest accomplishments of real world historic figures (Albert Einstein, Michael Jordan, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, King David, etc). Therefore, a 6th level PC is an epic character, able to destroy entire towns and villages with a few words, or challenge all of the king's knights to consecutive single combats and win. A being of myth and legend that will have his tales told for all of time (Achilles, Heracles, or Rustam).
Letting characters, especially player characters, get past that cap tosses that whole concept out the window.

Of course, if E# is referring to something else then feel free to ignore this post.

Good luck.

 

[radmod]

Of course, if E# is referring to something else then feel free to ignore this post.

Good luck.

No, that's what it refers to.
I got the idea of the E campaigns, but I presumed, perhaps incorrectly, that somewhere in the world you could find the really high muckety-mucks. How did they get there? Then there was the question in regards to age; why aren't there relatively high level elves and dwarves? How do you have things like liches (are there any?)?
For example, I consider LOTR and many books to be E campaigns. These guys are huge, relative to the common people, but when I read them I think they pale in comparison to standard D&D high levels. They are the definition of Greek heroes. Yet, there was always someone who was really, really powerful (i.e. higher level).

 

[Quartz]

No, that's what it refers to.
I got the idea of the E campaigns, but I presumed, perhaps incorrectly, that somewhere in the world you could find the really high muckety-mucks. How did they get there?

The high muckety-mucks are monsters or gods. If your E6 characters come up against a Titan, for instance, it's still going to be slinging 8th and 9th level spells. But no human or demihuman goes beyond 6th.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I presumed, perhaps incorrectly, that somewhere in the world you could find the really high muckety-mucks. How did they get there? ... How do you have things like liches (are there any?)?

They were created that way, or they engaged in secret and perverse rituals to gain even greater power.

One of the conceits of the E6 system variant is that there shouldn't really be combat foes over ~CR10.
That sweet CR 12 Aspect of Orcus that you like to use as a mini-boss in your eventually-epic undead campaign? That's now the actual stats of Orcus, Demon Lord of undeath (with a few tweaks).
That kick-butt Wizard 8 / Liche NPC you have used as a 'standard lieutenant' for the real bosses? He's now the high liche-lord of evil and the focus of the entire campaign.
The characters don't fight Titans. They petition them and hold (polite) discourse, because they can't actually threaten a being that can stop time to finish adjusting itself for the sudden fight.

For example, I consider LOTR and many books to be E campaigns. These guys are huge, relative to the common people, but when I read them I think they pale in comparison to standard D&D high levels. ... Yet, there was always someone who was really, really powerful (i.e. higher level).

You're right to think of these novels in E6 terms. That's wholly appropriate, and Aragorn is the big example in the essay I linked to earlier.
As for the obscenely powerful, they are all either foes (ring wraiths, Shelob, Smaug), background NPCs engaged in mysterious-but-vital activities that kept them off screen (Galadriel, Elrond), or villains that could not be fought directly (Sauron) and instead required the discernment of their one-weakness and how to exploit it.

The DM never has needed rules for how these things ended up where they have. He only needs rules for how they interact with the world (attacks, defenses, skills). Progression rules are for PCs, not NPCs.
That said, having a few guidelines for yourself to keep your world internally consistent is a good thing. If that's what your after then your initial post would be a good way to track when a villain really steps up to that next, obscene level.

Then there was the question in regards to age; why aren't there relatively high level elves and dwarves?

One interesting idea is this short essay by Sean K. Reynolds. It's not an E6 world, just the assumed D&D world, but still insightful, especially the last couple of paragraphs. It still assumes that everyone can level up, unlike E6 which really reserves that for adventuring types only, but it makes for some interesting speculation.
I find his math to be too lazy, but the basic idea is reasonable. Figure that a season is generally a CR 1/4 (75xp), split amongst a party of two (or more, with children and extended family actively assisting) and you're looking at no more than 37.5xp per season (likely around 18.25xp per season with a family group of four). That's 150 / 75 xp per year, or 6.66 / 13.33 years until level 2. And since the CR doesn't really change (excluding disaster-filled months), the xp rewards won't change until the commoners reach a high enough level to reduce the award. At 150 xp per year, a Dwarf (adult age: ~45) would be around 138 (middle aged) when he was level 6; at 75 per year he'd be 231 (creeping into venerable) upon reaching level 6. At level 7 he'd be around 325, probably dead of old age, and in the last few decades of his life no matter how long-lived he is.
A human gains experience at the same rate, so he'd be level 6 around ages 110 or 200, by which time he's dead of old age.
Elves work the same, just at a higher starting age (~125), hitting level 6 around age 311 (old), and level 7 around age 405 (venerable, possibly dead of old age).

Does that help?

 

[Quartz]

Just to continue the LOTR theme, assuming E6, you could say that anything pre-dating the reshaping of the World in the Second Age is full D20 and not limited to E6.

So, the Balrog was a full Balor as detailed in the Monster Manual; Gandalf was a GM special, likewise Saruman and Sauron. Aragorn was a L6 character with lots of extra feats. Gimli and Boromir were both plain L6 plus a couple of feats. Legolas was L6 plus several feats. The Ents were full MM Treants. Shelob was an 'ordinary' MM advanced giant spider with intelligence. Cirdan, Glorfindel, Elrond, and Galadriel were full, non E6, characters.

 

[Sylrae]

This is an interesting thread, on the Lord of the Rings analogies.

I'm inclined to think that Gandalf is only slightly outside the realm of e6 to begin with.

I'd say he's a level 6 multiclass character (Level 3 wizard) with some unusual feats, and some permanent spells on him (why he lives forever time-wise). (PFRPG, with Bonded Item instead of a familiar)

Has anyone done a detailed e6 breakdown of the LotR characters?

e6 PFRPG or e6 D&D3.5 are both equally cool.

 

[Water Bob]

Although not overtly presented in the Conan RPG rules, the thought of tieing experience to time spent learning it is there in the game if you read between the lines (especially when the game mentions that most people in the game world will never meet a character higher than 12th level in their lives).

This thread is the first I've heard of the "E#" concept, but I've been employing the idea in my campaign, CIMMERIAN BLOOD, for some time now.

It's an all human campaign, so I don't have to deal with the differences in learning ability and lifespans between elves and dwarves and humans and other races. I assume (and the way I read the Conan RPG, it assumes, as well) that characters start their careers at around age 15 or so, and that, on average, they gain about 1000 XP per year.

Conan XP is pretty simple. 1000 XP is what it takes got go from 1st level to 2nd level. 2000 XP is what it takes to go from 2nd level to 3rd level. 3000 XP is what it takes to go from 3rd level to 4th level, and so on.

So, it is assumed that, on average, a character earns about 1000 XP per year. If he starts his career at age 15, then he will be 2nd level at age 16. It will take him 3 years (1 year at 1st level and 2 years at 2nd level) to get to 3rd level. He'll be about 25 years old when he reaches 5th level, after 10 years of work in his career.

Of course, there are myriad reaons why one character will advance faster than another. Maybe one is smarter than the other. Maybe one has more opportunity than the other. Certainly a soldier on the Pict border of Aquilonia will advance faster than a garrison soldier at home, snug as a bug, in the captial of Tarrantia where the worst thing the soldier needs to fight is the drunken adventurer at the local pub.

Therefore, individuals (especially the player characters) can advance at faster (or slower) rates, but, as a whole, on average, most people advance by 1000 XP per year.

Here's a note I sent to my players in my campaign explaining this concept.




-- Typical Ages and Character Level --




Most people in this campaign range in character level from 1-10. Characters that are level 11+ are true heroes, in deed, known and recognized in many directions. Hyborian kings, arch-mages and great sorcerers, and clan heroes are the types of characters that can be statted at level 11+.

Otherwise, most of the population in this game can be judged by the chart below. But, beware, it is only a rule-of-thumb. It's a rule that is made to be broken.

For example, Finn, elder of Seven Stones Ridge, is 57 years old and 7th level. The chief of the Ice Leopards, though, is about ten years younger than Finn yet he is a level higher.



Level 1 - typical age is 15-16

Level 2 - typical age is 16-18.

Level 3 - typical age is 18-21

Level 4 - typical age is 21-25

Level 5 - typical age is 25-30

Level 6 - typical age is 30-36

Level 7 - typical age is 36-43

Level 8 - typical age is 43-51

Level 9 - typical age is 51-60

Level 10 - typical age is 60-70