An end to scry-buff-teleport?

[Hairfoot]

Well, wish is gone, to the delight of some and disappointment of others.

Do you think this is going to set a trend for spells which allow players to skip the hard work of adventuring?

One particular dislike of mine is the scry-buff-teleport method of dealing with adventure goals. I think that negotiating the journey, infiltrating the evil fortress and escaping intact are part and parcel of an exciting adventure, and I'd like to see it become the norm, rather than a chore only for low-level PCs without the right spells.

Wishful thinking on my part?

 

[Baby Samurai]

Yeah, my players totally broke/ruined/made un-fun etc an encounter by using clairvoyant sense, then mass buffs (anti-plant shell, barkskin etc), followed by burrowing to reach the encounter…LAME.

It wasn't clever or fun for anyone; it was just a big, boring, foregone conclusion/anti-climax.

So I'm totally with ya!

 

[Treebore]

I'm actually more for coming up with and using more defensive magics so such spells don't mean a "run over the BBEG" session.

Of course there are already a lot of spells in the books that do that. I guess maybe what is really needed is DMing classes on how to set up BBEG defenses.

I think it would also be good to re use an old idea in a very official capacity. HAve lead, gorgons blood, etc... be useable on a large scale to make buildings and fortifications immune, or at least highly resistant, to scry, teleport, etc...


Note: BBEG=Big Bad Evil Guy/Girl

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think the simple Scry-Buff-Teleport attack routine should probably be avoided.

But I also think it is okay that Scrying and Teleport can be used to circumvent certain things. It is important thought, that there is sufficient time left to explore the game without them available.

I think the tiers of play (Heroic, Paragon, Epic) is there to mark the differences.

Heroic characters wander the wilderness, infiltrate the castle, and fight their way to the throne room.
Paragon heroes divine the location of the castle, teleport there, find the path through the castles defenses and dimension door through the throne rooms admantine walls.
Epic level heroes divine the correct plane, scry the devil overlord to find out about his plans, walk ethreally through the castle to eventually reach his throne room.

If you prefer Heroic play, you should ensure that your campaign is done within that time, or you slow down advancement. If you hate Heroic play, start at Paragon. If you're a Planescape fan, maybe you should concentrate on Epic Level play.
If you like it all, just play through levels 1 to 30, and notice the changes to the feel of the game as the tier changes...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm actually more for coming up with and using more defensive magics so such spells don't mean a "run over the BBEG" session.

Of course there are already a lot of spells in the books that do that. I guess maybe what is really needed is DMing classes on how to set up BBEG defenses.

I think it would also be good to re use an old idea in a very official capacity. HAve lead, gorgons blood, etc... be useable on a large scale to make buildings and fortifications immune, or at least highly resistant, to scry, teleport, etc...


Note: BBEG=Big Bad Evil Guy/Girl

I think there shouldn't be only magical "antidotes" to spells. There should be more or less natural limitations that anybody could use (at least if he is spending some money).

Massive amounts of iron or lead in the walls block scrying.
Impossible to teleport into a private home/building without the consent of the owner.
A circle of mithral redirects any nearby teleportation effect to it (but also helps for targeting the circle itself)

A magician should be (very) helpful in countering such magic, but he shouldn't be the only option.

 

[Cbas_10]

Well, wish is gone, to the delight of some and disappointment of others.

Do you think this is going to set a trend for spells which allow players to skip the hard work of adventuring?

One particular dislike of mine is the scry-buff-teleport method of dealing with adventure goals. I think that negotiating the journey, infiltrating the evil fortress and escaping intact are part and parcel of an exciting adventure, and I'd like to see it become the norm, rather than a chore only for low-level PCs without the right spells.

Wishful thinking on my part?

I'm not sure I agree with you. As characters become more powerful, the challenges they face evolve as well. Foes become more cunning, storylines might nullify the benefit of such things, and all that. That and adventure design can easily become less "straight-forward" as PCs increase in level and DMs have more options to use as challenges. Maybe the PCs have to search the fortress to find out who the BBEG even is in the first place...what if there is an old cliche of the BBEG being back at [home base] masquerading as an ally... etc etc etc.

 

[Baby Samurai]

I think there shouldn't be only magical "antidotes" to spells.

Exactly, I'm through having arms races with players.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Magical arms races are lame. I want to see fewer magical problems that require magical solutions, both on the battlefield and off.

 

[IceFractal]

I'm with Mustrum_Ridcully on this - while trekking through the wilderness can be an adventure in itself, different styles of adventures are appropriate for different levels of characters.

Heroic level characters - yes, they should do things the hard way. Forge their way through the woods to the castle, sneak into the castle in a wagon of hay, fight their way through the defenders, search for secret passages if the doors are too sturdy, and so forth.

Paragon level characters can take some shortcuts - they've earned them. It's hardly out of character for a Paragon character to Teleport to the castle (although not directly into the throne room) - getting there is no longer the challenge, dealing with what you find there is. Likewise, in the castle, they can bypass the first lines of defense the easy way (invisibility, knock, etc), until they reach the inner areas which are better protected. They still shouldn't be going straight to the BBEG, but it's not unreasonable that the BBEG be taking some precautions to prevent them.

Epic level characters can go straight to the BBEG, and if the BBEG doesn't have defenses against that kind of assault then they deserve to die. At Epic levels, walls are not a challenge, distance is not a challenge, normal guards and orc hordes are not a challenge. The challenge is Epic foes and multiplanar events.

 

[Monkey Boy]

Epic level characters can go straight to the BBEG, and if the BBEG doesn't have defenses against that kind of assault then they deserve to die. At Epic levels, walls are not a challenge, distance is not a challenge, normal guards and orc hordes are not a challenge. The challenge is Epic foes and multiplanar events.

You realise Epic level is 1/3rd of the game right? If Epic in 4E is the equivalent of Epic 3E then I think I'll pass on level 21-30. That would be a shame. I'm hoping Epic 4E isn't as gonzo as Epic 3E.