An end to scry-buff-teleport?

[Henry]

As a DM, you can handwave overland travel time if you want to avoid having to play it out, and you can use that portal the legion of Orcus worshippers were opening to springboard adventures into the Abyss or what-have-you. Personally, I see it as a win-win for the game.

This is kind of the opposite problem to the whole "mystical vs. nonmystical warrior" debate going on in another thread - it's taking something away to avoid plot problems, as opposed to adding something in to enhance player options and fun. From my perspective, there are as many adventure springboards to teleport as written as there are to limiting teleports -- Simultaneous objectives, teleport diversions, physically impassible locations, and enemy intelligence-gathering, to name a few.

One of the largest complaints we see is the all-seeing, all-knowing plot device wizards who can just pop in to save the day any time they choose. Yeah, it's taking away toys they had in the past but I think it's well worth it - whether you simply retcon it as always being this way or have some FR-style event to alter how magic works.

Will the players enjoy it, though? (I'm reminded of the note on the last podcast about players grumbling when broken stuff is taken away.) Some players will; other players will be annoyed that magic can bend physics, create matter from nothing, rearrange terrain, but it can't move people from one place to another in an instant - and worse, knowing that the rules used to, but don't anymore.

 

[BryonD]

Monte Cook in Arcana Unearthed incorporated the concept of "teleportation ley lines." There were certain paths criss-crossing the earth that teleports worked to. If your destination was somewhere along that path, then you were good to go. If your destination were outside of that lattice, then you had to travel there with more conventional means. So, Major cities with guardposts, etc. might have been intentionally built across a "ley line" to facilitate travel, while an evil stronghold might be intentionally built in a location remote to those lines. For fun, you can say that magical fluctuations alter the lattice; in 400 years' time, what was a strong line might have faded, forcing longer travel times. An evil stronghold might suddenly now be right on a strong ley line that just formed, causing interesting times. That's one thought.

I like this idea. But I would not want to see it in the core rules. It is more a setting specific thing.

 

[Remathilis]

I found making PCs stunned the first round after a teleport fixes the BST problem. Sure, they have the drop of the baddie and are buffed, but they effectively lose initiative that first round...

Note, that 6 sec delay usually doesn't effect travellers or retreats, just teleports inside combat...

 

[Nifft]

I also like the idea of both teleportation sickness and a sense of incoming teleports - not both at once, but one or the other, or a possible tradeoff (a rushed teleport leaves you sick, a normal one has a gradual exit and entrance.)

In my current game, I do the incoming warning thing.

Teleportation is loud. Dimension door (and below) all make a *bamph!* sound. Teleport itself is like a thunderclap. Plane shift is artillery. And gate? Yeah. You'll know. Cities dislike allowing permanent teleport circles within their walls, but if they do allow them, they're closed at night.

Also, teleportation effects can take time. Teleport feels instantaneous to the teleporter, but it takes 3 rounds in the real world. For those three rounds the noise builds -- first a loud hum, then a buzz, then the roll of thunder heralds the incoming traveler.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think the casting time is fine, because it is a great get-away spell this way, and I do not think that games can be hurt by that. At least your evil spellcasters have a chance of escaping certain death if the PCs arrive and overpower their defenses. But the arrival might have some drawbacks (being 1d4+1 rounds later than the teleport start, the teleported people being disoriented for a short time). The destination might be limited to certain teleport markings (another use for Arcane Mark?).

Make two different teleport spells, one a rapid escape spell that can only go to a few specific locations (ley lines, prepared sites, the site of their birth, whatever), and one that takes a long time to cast and is a lot more flexible.

 

[Rechan]

Make two different teleport spells, one a rapid escape spell that can only go to a few specific locations (ley lines, prepared sites, the site of their birth, whatever), and one that takes a long time to cast and is a lot more flexible.

Or, instead of Teleport, use Dimensional Door.

 

[Treebore]

I think there shouldn't be only magical "antidotes" to spells. There should be more or less natural limitations that anybody could use (at least if he is spending some money).

Massive amounts of iron or lead in the walls block scrying.
Impossible to teleport into a private home/building without the consent of the owner.
A circle of mithral redirects any nearby teleportation effect to it (but also helps for targeting the circle itself)

A magician should be (very) helpful in countering such magic, but he shouldn't be the only option.

I agree, thats why I mentioned Gorgons blood, etc...

 

[Treebore]

I have read lots of people that have stated something along the lines of "prevent spell/buff x by have the NPC do y". The problem wiith this line of thinking is: Why have the spell to begin with if you're just going to block it anyways?

why have scry and teleport if the BBEG is going to have stuff in place to cancel it anyways?
As a player I find it annoying to have really cool spell X, but I can't use it when it counts because the crafty DM has put all these defenses for the BBEG in place.

Why? You said it yourself. The BBEG is crafty, not stupid. He knows the threats to him just as well as anyone, so if he has the means to overcome/negate those threats, then he will.

As for teleports, the answer seems obvious to me. They only work as "circles". So you can only teleport from one circle to another. Circles can have magical names, so if a circle exists already, and you can "Identify" its name, or be given it, you incorporate it into your teleport spell to go there.

Thats what low level teleporting should do. Only the higher level teleport should make "free teleporting" possible, but still very dangerous.

Plane travel should also be required to go through "portals", that have an obvious and very visible effect, so that anyone knows something is happening, and its likely bad.

Plus mundane methods, as several previous posters have mentioned should be effective against a lot fo things too.

The only reason you have an "arms race" is to be able to do things no one can counter. If enough people can counter it then it isn't the "killer" spell, or spell combo anymore.

Take nuclear missiles as an example. We can't do anything against the explosion itself, but we can do plenty against the missile carrying the bomb or bombs.

Now imagine if teleportation becomes viable, and it is being worked on, how would you stop the teleportation of nuclear bombs into governmental seats of power? It would be nice to think that you can make buildings safe by lining them with lead.

However, that bomb teleported outside your window is still going to kill you.

So with teleport circles a party may not be able to go inside of a building, but they can still get to the outside of it easy enough, and then go inside and kill/capture their target.

So spells really need to be looked at as weapons, and counters need to be researched, discovered, and used. The solutions can be "hi tech" spells, but its a mystical world. So there is no Law of Physics saying lead, salt, gorgons blood, etc... cannot work as well.

 

[Treebore]

Teleportation Sickness:

Upon arrival at their destination, all subjects of a teleport effect are dazed, fatigued, nauseated, or stunned (pick one) for 2d4 rounds (or longer if you wish). With this rule, teleport remains a viable method of long-term travel and permits for ready escapes, but popping into a guarded area is a dangerous gambit.

Thats what I would do for the higher level "free teleporting" idea. IT would also be very effective for the current teleport system.

As for scrying, its something thats a reality, even in todays world. So its best to just come up with ways that it can be countered, even by the "commoner".

Mind Blank is the ultimate Scrying defense, but spells and mundane ways to counter it also need to be available. Again, lead, maybe standing between two mirrors facing each other, and other rather simplistic ways that can invoke mystical forces that counter, resist, or increase the difficulty of scrying to work.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The Astral Caravan power for psions is interesting in this context. It's like Plane Shift, but a journey. While at some level it might take TOO long (continued enhancement to eventually take it down to a day with a dedicated Nomad would be nice) but it gives a much nicer (imo) feel to plane hopping. A similar feel to long distance teleporting, where you entered an intermediate plane and walked to your destination would be nice.

Isn't that Shadow Walk?