An end to scry-buff-teleport?

[JohnSnow]

The idea that it's "metagame" is pretty absurd to me.

That's like saying gold pieces are metagame.

Those spells exist in the world of the PC's. They behave in that world as the PHB states they behave. None of it relies on out-of-character knowledge or tactics that aren't evident from the very nature of these spell effects (which are known quantities to the PC's, and, presumably, to the villains they face). You don't need to stop thinking of these things as actual game-world effects in the slightest in order to use these tactics.

No, S-B-T is what any rational spellcaster in the setting would do. Because it's smart. If these spells have existed for hundreds of years, it's a known quantity and a known threat. It's a stupid villain that ignores this potentiality, and lets the PC's achieve an easy victory.

And *that's* why S-B-T is not a cure-all. The bad guys should be just as aware of this tactic as the PC's. After all, the principles of these spells are known and they exist in the game world. Characters know the principles of these spells (at the very least, the spellcasters themselves know them). It doesn't rely on any knowledge the character doesn't have. It's not gamist, it's not metagame, it's distinctly in-character tactics.

I'm all for 4e throwing a wrench or two into the system, but S-B-T is a valid in-character tactic. Just like spending 10 gold on a longsword is a valid in-character tactic.

What's the counter? Seriously. How do you counter this spell? Ward against it? Now every single important character must have a spellcaster to ward him at all times against this tactic. By its very nature, the tactic calls for an absurdly high-magic setting.

The magic system was invented for a GAME. The spells have limitations (or don't) based on their assumed use in the game. If WotC had foreseen the Scry-Buff-Teleport combo, they would have written the spells differently. The players are trying to use loopholes in the game rules to circumvent the story. That's metagaming.

Your argument that "the characters are aware of the reality" is like trying to rationalize the D&D wealth-by-level rules to create a functioning economy. It's like PCs deliberately taking a 200 foot fall or going swimming in lava because they technically, by the RAW, have the hit point reserve to survive. At that point, they're metagaming a loophole in the game rules. In my opinion, it's the same with this spell combo.

I'm convinced that the teleport spell was intended as a travel spell to allow high-level PCs to circumvent boring treks through the wilderness - not as a "drop in your assault team on the bad guy" spell. I submit that if WotC had conceived of this problem in advance, they would have written some of the spells differently. And if it's being used that way, then one or more of the spells in question probably need to be rewritten to disable that functionality.

(As an aside, per-encounter balancing by itself goes a long way towards fixing this problem - since the PCs have no ability to "go nova" in an encounter).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I get the impression that you don't like Midnight. Fine. But that's no reason to trash it for reasons that make perfect sense to people who do.

I don't get where you think that at all.

Surely there are disagreements on the Midnight board. Do all those people who disagree with something in the book hate the setting and "trash" it by bringing it up?

And KM makes a good argument for why the rationale is worth having in a Midnight book, although I submit it doesn't belong in the core book, but in a supplement that is specifically about the ancient past or about the cosmology of the setting in general, so that the (I'd submit) minority of people who would use this can buy into it without the (I'd submit) majority who won't having it taking up space that could be used on something that's more likely to be used in more games.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

What's the counter? Seriously. How do you counter this spell? Ward against it? Now every single important character must have a spellcaster to ward him at all times against this tactic. By its very nature, the tactic calls for an absurdly high-magic setting.

The magic system was invented for a GAME. The spells have limitations (or don't) based on their assumed use in the game. If WotC had foreseen the Scry-Buff-Teleport combo, they would have written the spells differently. The players are trying to use loopholes in the game rules to circumvent the story. That's metagaming.

Your argument that "the characters are aware of the reality" is like trying to rationalize the D&D wealth-by-level rules to create a functioning economy. It's like PCs deliberately taking a 200 foot fall or going swimming in lava because they technically, by the RAW, have the hit point reserve to survive. At that point, they're metagaming a loophole in the game rules. In my opinion, it's the same with this spell combo.

I'm convinced that the teleport spell was intended as a travel spell to allow high-level PCs to circumvent boring treks through the wilderness - not as a "drop in your assault team on the bad guy" spell. I submit that if WotC had conceived of this problem in advance, they would have written some of the spells differently. And if it's being used that way, then one or more of the spells in question probably need to be rewritten to disable that functionality.

(As an aside, per-encounter balancing by itself goes a long way towards fixing this problem - since the PCs have no ability to "go nova" in an encounter).

Pre-emptive S-B-T by the BBEG and his/her minions? That's another reason that I don't particularly care for it. It isn't easy to counter...at least I haven't found an easy way.

 

[JohnSnow]

I don't get where you think that at all.

Surely there are disagreements on the Midnight board. Do all those people who disagree with something in the book hate the setting and "trash" it by bringing it up?

And KM makes a good argument for why the rationale is worth having in a Midnight book, although I submit it doesn't belong in the core book, but in a supplement that is specifically about the ancient past or about the cosmology of the setting in general, so that the (I'd submit) minority of people who would use this can buy into it without the (I'd submit) majority who won't having it taking up space that could be used on something that's more likely to be used in more games.

Let's see, did you or did you not use the terms:

"stupidly metagamey"
"Fan-wankery at its worst"
"the not-Ring Wraiths"
"Middle-Earth with the numbers filed off"

Something about all those phrases implied to me you have a negative view of the setting. Maybe I was wrong.

As far as putting it in a supplement book, they never knew they'd get one when they first wrote it. The book is a Campaign Setting Book - not strictly a game book. It may be that having discussions of the cosmological implications is too "fluffy" for you, but it seems that the vast percentage of people who play in the setting have never complained about it. Many seem to enjoy it. And, since the setting got a Second Edition that left the Sundering and all its cosmological fluff in, I'm going to go out on a limb that it was well-received.

On the other hand, this is way off-topic to the core discussion.

 

[Odhanan]

"The Sundering," as they call it in Midnight, is not "stupidly metagamey." It's a key conceit of the setting that when Izrador was banished by the other gods, he cut the Prime material Plane off from the rest of the multiverse. Thus no contacting gods, no gates, no teleport, no ethereal plane, no spirits going to their final rest, and so on. And the only divine magic in the setting belongs to the servants of Izrador himself.

I think that the whole thing feels metagamey too. Actually, that's the main reason why I never liked Midnight. It's a setting that feels built to trap the PCs in it. It's designed with the "I'm tired of PCs teleporting!" whiny DMs in mind, and I'm just not one of those.

 

[JohnSnow]

I think that the whole thing feels metagamey too. Actually, that's the main reason why I never liked Midnight. It's a setting that feels built to trap the PCs in it. It's designed with the "I'm tired of PCs teleporting!" whiny DMs in mind, and I'm just not one of those.

Which is why Iron Heroes held no appeal for you, right?

If you don't mjnd the S-B-T combo, please tell me how you keep it from breaking your plots. Why is it not a lame tactic? I am actually more interested in discussing that than the pros and cons of Midnight.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Let's see, did you or did you not use the terms:

"stupidly metagamey"
"Fan-wankery at its worst"
"the not-Ring Wraiths"
"Middle-Earth with the numbers filed off"

Something about all those phrases implied to me you have a negative view of the setting.

I can like a book and still find certain (unnecessary) things added to it to be stupid or wankery.

And Midnight's initial hook is the bad guys winning War of the Rings. Obviously, as a setting, it's evolved into a lot more than that, but it's not a mistake or a dig to say it's Middle-Earth with Sauron in charge.

As far as putting it in a supplement book, they never knew they'd get one when they first wrote it. The book is a Campaign Setting Book - not strictly a game book.

The book did get a second edition with a lot of revisions to the text, based on the success of the line. At that point, cosmology was clearly something that could have gone into its own supplement.

It may be that having discussions of the cosmological implications is too "fluffy" for you, but it seems that the vast percentage of people who play in the setting have never complained about it. Many seem to enjoy it.

And Britney Spears sells millions of records. Taste isn't a matter for a democratic vote.

Heck, I'm told there are people who dislike gnomes, and despite being many in number, they're still clearly wrong!

 

[robertliguori]

One point to consider:
You can't balance something by looking at its average case. You need to look at the upmost limits of what it can do, because when it's used in a system, it will be used optimally.

Take the teleport capacity of any number of exemplar outsiders. Wimpy little CR 2 and 4 archons have Greater Teleport. At will.

"Aha," the developers said, "but it's balanced, see? They can only take along 50 pounds of gear, and no other creatures!"

"Great." said the players. "Heard of these neat things called bags of holding? You can schlep an entire party into one of the bigger ones, have the wizard's planar familiar zap us to a secluded location a day's travel or so from where we want to be, and then walk the rest of the way, for anyplace in the world not covered with Forbiddance or Hallow. And this is at level 7."

There exist counters to conditions like Stunned or Dazed; inflicting them on your way through a teleport simply means that warforged wizards will rule the day.

Really, the problem with teleport is that at the core, beating through the defenses of a castle or dungeon is not an ideal strategy. There's really no way around the fact that if a dungeon is meant to challenge the PCs and use up their resources, then the smart thing to do is not to play the dungeon's game. Finding out when your opponent is weak and then circumventing his defenes to strike when you are strong is a really good strategy; it doesn't matter so much if it's Scry or Commune, or whether or not Invisibility and Wind Walk are combined to produce the effect of a Teleport. If the characters are seeking goals beyond glory and the experience of dungeon-crawling, then they will often come up to solutions to problems totally at odds with the traditional dungeon-crawling experience. I view this as a good thing, myself. On the other hand, I have played characters that have strip-mined the Tomb of Horrors. I'm probably not totally representative of the D&D gamer population.

 

[Odhanan]

Which is why Iron Heroes held no appeal for you, right?

If you don't mjnd the S-B-T combo, please tell me how you keep it from breaking your plots. Why is it not a lame tactic? I am actually more interested in discussing that than the pros and cons of Midnight.

I'm interested in IH for other reasons than controlling players, yes. IH does not limit the players. It basically centers the characters' coolness on the characters themselves, not their gear. It is indeed very different in nature.

To tell you the truth the S-B-T combo might have come up in my games what. One, two times since 3E came out? That's why I don't think it's a problem. There's nothing wrong with PCs wiping out a lair of bad guys. There's nothing wrong with PCs winning.

That becomes a potential problem if it happens all the time. The fun of the game gets affected, because it becomes boring for everyone involved. That includes the players using the tactic themselves. If a player used that all the time, I'd talk about it outside the game first by saying "Is the systematic use of this tactic still fun for you? I'm getting bored of it". Fortunately, the players of my last two campaigns wouldn't need that kind of talk, because they would think about stuff like that before I would bring it up.

For short, I think the S-B-T combo is problematic in theory, when you talk about it in a vacuum. It hasn't ever been an issue in my games.

 

[Treebore]

Your right, it isn't easy to counter scry/buff/teleport.

However, getting rid fo them is just the whimpy way out, and takes away big "cool" factors for the players.

So the solution I would support is to come up with magical and non magical ways to make them easier to handle.

So a lot fo the ideas put forth in this thread should be expounded upon and put to use.

Lets, see:

Gorgons blood in the mortar of the building blocks scrying.

Salt lines across doorways/along walls stop certain creatures, like ghosts.

Lead, blocks scrying and/or teleport

That "hoop" idea that reroutes teleports ending nearby to end within the hoop.

Lower level teleports require fixed departure and arrival points, IE circles.

Higher level teleports can be free of fixed destinations, but makes you nauseous for 2d4 rounds.

What other ideas or spells?

Lets make this thread useful.