An end to scry-buff-teleport?

[JohnSnow]

You just countered your own rebuttal here. It's not a "cheat code" because there is no way to beat the game without the GM's approval. So what does it "add" to the game? The same thing as casting fireball while invisible, time stopping to throw swarms at the BBEG, making maneuvers to stick your sword in the dragon's throat or what-have-you... an option for the players to feel like they've done some smart play (cf. Whiz's post).

Honestly, any type of tactic like this gets really old, really fast. If a player wants to use it all the time and makes the game boring for everyone involved, why isn't anyone pointing it out?

So essentially, you agree it's the kind of thing that gets really old, really fast. However, by the rules as written, with no counter, it's a no-brainer tactic. Without the rules being changed, everyone SHOULD be doing this.

And curiously, under what theory is using a no-brainer tactic "smart play?"

 

[JohnSnow]

I tend to dislike Scry-Buff-Teleport, but one of my major objections isn't the *PCs* abusing it. It's trying to justify why the NPC villains don't abuse the hell out of it. You can always try to justify your villains spending all of their days in a small area (every time I've worked out the actual area covered by the wards in the game I've thought they're actually damn small) magically warded against Scrying or Teleportation. But what about the PCs? Are they expected to spend their days huddled behind such wards? Why don't the bad guys Scry-Buff-Teleport right back? In most campaigns and adventure paths, the bad guys have ample access to magical teleporation (heck, teleporting outsiders practically infest the Paizo Adventure Paths). I find it hard to justify why the forces of evil don't abuse the hell out of it. And if the DM provides handy, portable protections against such things, why doesn't everyone have them? And if everyone does have them, why did why bother with this whole furshlinger arms race to begin with?

Thank you. That's my point exactly. Either it's common, or it's rare.

What's happened here is that some gamers have stumbled across a loophole in the game rules. The DM doesn't exploit the loophole against them because, simply put, a good DM doesn't do that.

The players exploit the loophole and think they're being clever. But they'd scream bloody murder if the DM did it back. For instance:

*The PCs are out of spells. They've just cleaned out the Caves of Despair and obtained the artifact they need to confront the evil dark lord Sythas.*

PC: "Okay, after we rest and recover, we should be able to ambush Sythas and destroy him."

*Sythas appears in a flash of teleportation energy*

Sythas: "I was waiting for this moment. Now you are weak. DIE FOOLS, DIE!"

*TPK*

Yeah. That's fun. And why doesn't it happen? Because the DM's not trying to screw the players. By contrast, when they do it, they're, what, playing smart?

Sorry I don't buy it. Next time someone tries to scry the BBEG in my game, he finger of deaths them. That'll end that tactic for good.

 

[Odhanan]

So essentially, you agree it's the kind of thing that gets really old, really fast.

How often did it come up in your games since 2000, JS?

However, by the rules as written, with no counter, it's a no-brainer tactic. Without the rules being changed, everyone SHOULD be doing this.

Anyone who acts like a computer and does not care for the actual entertainment the game provides? Maybe (I'm sure there are more effective ways to "wipe out the map" though).

Thankfully I don't play D&D with AIs. I play it with real people.

 

[FourthBear]

Anyone who acts like a computer and does not care for the actual entertainment the game provides? Maybe (I'm sure there are more effective ways to "wipe out the map" though).

Thankfully I don't play D&D with AIs. I play it with real people.

I play with real people as well, but the real people I play with like to think that they're using all of their resources to their best effect and their enemies are doing likewise. If characters (either PCs or NPCs) aren't using obvious tactics because it would spoil the entertainment value, the problem almost certainly lies with rules that provide those obvious entertainment spoiling tactics. Scry-Buff-Teleport isn't smart or clever, it's just common sense. If people like the arms race where you've got to have certain wards and defenses to play the game at high level, that's one thing. But having those abilities and just not using them to their best effect because you'd be acting like a "computer"? I wouldn't enjoy that since it would spoil the air of verisimilitude and suspension of disbelief. It's like in science fiction when they don't use the special widget they invented in the last book to solve a problem.

 

[Odhanan]

How many times did S-B-T actually show up in your games?

 

[FourthBear]

How many times did S-B-T actually show up in your games?

Most of my games haven't been at high enough level for Teleport without Error, which is the biggie. In those relevant games I've DMed it occurred about five times by PCs successfully. There were a fair number of failures because I decided that villains would indeed be skulking behind wards, but it seemed silly to have *all* of them doing so. Three or four times the villains were intelligent and struck in the same way, resulting in every case in a near Total Party Kill (I fudged in two cases). It's very effective. In my latest campaigns, I house-ruled teleport to be only between teleportation circles, which has worked very well. Thanks for asking!

 

[Odhanan]

Now, did your players enjoy the game less because they, or the villains, were able to do such a thing?

 

[FourthBear]

Now, did your players enjoy the game less because they, or the villains, were able to do such a thing?

My players expressed their feeling that such tactics felt like cheating, but they were used because they were so effective. After the house-ruling of teleportation, they expressed their feelings that they were enjoying the high level game more since it required less suspension of disbelief. So, yes, they did enjoy the game less with Scry-Buff-Teleport than without.

Do you players express that they would enjoy the game less without Scry-Buff-Teleport? If 4e eliminated it, would you house-rule it back in?

 

[Odhanan]

My players expressed their feeling that such tactics felt like cheating, but they were used because they were so effective. After the house-ruling of teleportation, they expressed their feelings that they were enjoying the high level game more since it required less suspension of disbelief. So, yes, they did enjoy the game less with Scry-Buff-Teleport than without.

Okay. We're reaching my point here. I'm asking these questions because that's what actually matters. If an issue comes up in the game consistently, then the participants of the game just talk about it. They find a solution to the problem. If everyone feels that just not using the combo is the solution, let's just not use it. If the DM just house-rules this or that to eliminate the issue, that works just as well.

Point is, these are people just playing the game. Issue shows up... talk about it... solve the problem. Which is something I would do as well if S-B-T became a problem at my game table, but it never became one. So far.

My real point is twofold: 1/ you know an issue really is an issue when it shows up consistently at your game table and lessens the enjoyment of the participants of the game because of its repeated occurrence. 2/ The participants of the game just fix the problem, one way or another.

The fact of the matter is, I don't think it's any use to anyone to talk about an "issue" in the rules without talking about its actual occurrence in games and how it creates a problem at a particular game table. That was my real point, in answer to the "if we go by the RAW" argument, in fact.

Do you players express that they would enjoy the game less without Scry-Buff-Teleport? If 4e eliminated it, would you house-rule it back in?

Do they express that they would enjoy the game less without S-B-T? No. If 4E eliminated it, would I house-rule it back in? Not really, no. Thanks for asking!

 

[Lanefan]

S-B-T didn't show up in my games nearly as often as T-B-T - make good some ground into the dungeon, then teleport (or planeshift) out; rest, get re-buffed by retired PCs and lackeys hanging around the party's home base, then teleport (or planeshift) back in and keep going. Fun the first time. Bloody annoying the hundredth time. Will fix for next campaign...planeshift is getting a bi-ig makeover.

That said, I did use a full S-B-T against the party once...said home base got laid waste after most of the key PCs had been lured into the field on a fake mission. Those that stayed home never knew what hit 'em - the attack came in the middle of the night and some died before even waking up. By the time the PCs in the field realized they'd been had and could get back home, their lovely castle had been turned into Swiss cheese along with quite a few of the occupants...

Lane-"that'll teach 'em about messin' with the Githi!"-fan