An end to scry-buff-teleport?

[Varianor Abroad]

This whole thread seems to have missed the combat example that had the wizard doing a short-range teleport in battle. I think we can assume that at least a dim door variant is in use. Whether the entire Spell Combo Arms Race of Scry-Buff-Teleport remains is of course unknown. And subject to random postings from Wizards that will illuminate and confuzzle until we get the books in our hands.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Your right, it isn't easy to counter scry/buff/teleport.

If I may add to that sentence '...predesigned in the RAW.'

The biggest issue I see with the S-B-T tactic handed to smart characters/players is that there is no counter handed out to the GM. This leads to a number of inexperienced GMs and most written modules never taking the tactic into account..

Which leads to many peoples opinions that the tactic is broken.

The answers are to alter the tactic itself {as shown upthread mutliple times} or implement an easy counter. The easiest counter is to design a spell that is often tied to a {Un}Hallow with the effect of shunting arriving teleporting characters to a specific spot.

Now there is a simple and effective counter, most mid to high level lairs will have one..and the high level characters can get close to the enemy before having to drudge through the mundane adventuring stuff.

The options for the design of the counters are virtually limitless.. perhaps an area is protected from scrying, perhaps scry spells are redirected into a programmed illusion, perhaps the teleport triggers a dispel magic on the arriving characters... lots of interesting, custom counters!


[sidetrek]regarding the Midnight setting. Its shorter to give a story reasoning like the 'Sundering' then listing every potential implication. This allows GM's to extrapolate the settings mechanics instead of having to refer to a huge list of 'doesnt work here' items.

I prefer a game world to have a history, and expect that history will be included in the Campaign Setting book. Makes it easier to handle the fictional reality
[/sidetrek]

regarding 4e and S-B-T, I thought I saw something early on about changes to the buff line of effects... no real crunch tho

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If I may add to that sentence '...predesigned in the RAW.'

The biggest issue I see with the S-B-T tactic handed to smart characters/players is that there is no counter handed out to the GM. This leads to a number of inexperienced GMs and most written modules never taking the tactic into account..

Which leads to many peoples opinions that the tactic is broken.

Arguably, by the RAW, it is. Certainly by the time 3.5 rolled around, it should have been addressed, either by limitations being added to teleport or by at least a discussion of the issue in the DMG.

I don't dislike the tactic myself -- I think it's just smart play by the players -- but I also agree that not every D&D campaign needs to turn into The Authority eventually.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

I don't dislike the tactic myself -- I think it's just smart play by the players -- but I also agree that not every D&D campaign needs to turn into The Authority eventually.

I loves me some Authority.

Like anything else in the game, Scry-Buff-Teleport is only a problem if it's unfun. If the players and DM like using that strategy, they can keep it, and run Medieval Authority d20. If the group as a whole decides it's not fun to do that anymore, they aren't trapped into using that strategy. The Wizard might announce that he's interested in studying the plants that dot the road on the way to the Arch-Fiend's tower, so this time they'll skip the teleport and hoof it.

It becomes a problem when the Wizard wants to use that strategy, because it's a good one, and the rest of the party stares off longingly into space, stacking their dice up and waiting for their turn to have fun. Then the DM needs to railroad a bit. 4th Edition doesn't need to remove Scry-Buff-Teleport as an option, but it does need a set of tools for DMs to disrupt it when necessary that don't feel too railroad-y.

 

[Stoat]

The last high-level game I DM'd was specifically designed around the assumption that the PC's would S-B-T.

The party ran between 19th and 21st level, and ended one game session battling a tricked-out Arcanaloth. The combat ended with the party shoving the beastie through a Prismatic Wall. Given his saves and SR, the 'loth was mostly unharmed, but when hit the Violet wall, his luck ran out. He was "sent to another plane" -- specifcally the Astral. Of course, with his spell-like abilities, he was able to teleport himself to safety from there.

The next session went as you'd expect. The PC's used Scry and some other divinations to find the 'lolth. He was in a small, luxurious bedchamber in the city of Jangling Hiter. They buffed, plane shifted, teleported and waxed the baddie all in about 10 minutes of game time. They had accomplished what they came to do, and they could have called it a day and gone home.

But there was a single door in the room, and they had to know what was on the other side. . .

Which is to say that at a certain point "find the BBEG and cap him" can stop being the alpha and omega of adventure design. Players should be encouraged to ask, Why is the BBEG here? What weird experiments is he pursuing? Should we destroy his powerful lieutenants? Where is his treasure vault?

What happens after the BBEG drops can be an adventure in itself.

 

[JohnSnow]

<----Still waiting for someone to explain why this tactic is in any way "cool."

Cuz the only justification I've heard so far is that it's "okay for the players to win."

Well, duh. But to me this tactic is about players trying to "beat" the game. It's the D&D equivalent of a cheat code.

But in reality, the DM is all powerful. You can't "beat" the game, unless the DM lets you. The game should be about playing, not winning.

So someone explain to me: what does the availability of this tactic ADD to the game?

 

[Hella_Tellah]

<----Still waiting for someone to explain why this tactic is in any way "cool."

Cuz the only justification I've heard so far is that it's "okay for the players to win."

Well, duh. But to me this tactic is about players trying to "beat" the game. It's the D&D equivalent of a cheat code.

But in reality, the DM is all powerful. You can't "beat" the game, unless the DM lets you. The game should be about playing, not winning.

So someone explain to me: what does the availability of this tactic ADD to the game?

Why is tromping through the forest, following tracks to find the enemy encampment cool? I don't know, but people play Rangers because they think that's cool.

I think teleporting anywhere I like and accomplishing the mission with the ultimate in stealth is cool; that's why I like Hiro Nakamura from Heroes, the comic book The Authority, etc. I like the idea of the villain coming back to his inner sanctum wearing his evil satin robe, carrying an evil glass of chardoney, preparing to turn in for en evil evening of evil repose, only to find the hero of the tale sitting in his evil armchair, waiting for him, catching him off guard.

I don't know why I think that's awesome, but I do.

 

[Odhanan]

Well, duh. But to me this tactic is about players trying to "beat" the game. It's the D&D equivalent of a cheat code.

But in reality, the DM is all powerful. You can't "beat" the game, unless the DM lets you. The game should be about playing, not winning.

You just countered your own rebuttal here. It's not a "cheat code" because there is no way to beat the game without the GM's approval. So what does it "add" to the game? The same thing as casting fireball while invisible, time stopping to throw swarms at the BBEG, making maneuvers to stick your sword in the dragon's throat or what-have-you... an option for the players to feel like they've done some smart play (cf. Whiz's post).

Honestly, any type of tactic like this gets really old, really fast. If a player wants to use it all the time and makes the game boring for everyone involved, why isn't anyone pointing it out?

 

[JohnSnow]

Why is tromping through the forest, following tracks to find the enemy encampment cool? I don't know, but people play Rangers because they think that's cool.

I think teleporting anywhere I like and accomplishing the mission with the ultimate in stealth is cool; that's why I like Hiro Nakamura from Heroes, the comic book The Authority, etc. I like the idea of the villain coming back to his inner sanctum wearing his evil satin robe, carrying an evil glass of chardoney, preparing to turn in for en evil evening of evil repose, only to find the hero of the tale sitting in his evil armchair, waiting for him, catching him off guard.

I don't know why I think that's awesome, but I do.

Okay. The surprise factor of that scene I get. And it is cool. But I've seen it in James Bond movies...and he doesn't have teleport.

I guess heroes as assassins just isn't that heroic to me.

For the record, I have a solution that I use for this problem...you can't violate a threshold uninvited. That solves it for me - no magical entry unless you're invited in. Of course, that's a circumventable limitation, but the circumvention makes for an interesting story in itself.

 

[FourthBear]

<----Still waiting for someone to explain why this tactic is in any way "cool."

Cuz the only justification I've heard so far is that it's "okay for the players to win."

I tend to dislike Scry-Buff-Teleport, but one of my major objections isn't the *PCs* abusing it. It's trying to justify why the NPC villains don't abuse the hell out of it. You can always try to justify your villains spending all of their days in a small area (every time I've worked out the actual area covered by the wards in the game I've thought they're actually damn small) magically warded against Scrying or Teleportation. But what about the PCs? Are they expected to spend their days huddled behind such wards? Why don't the bad guys Scry-Buff-Teleport right back? In most campaigns and adventure paths, the bad guys have ample access to magical teleporation (heck, teleporting outsiders practically infest the Paizo Adventure Paths). I find it hard to justify why the forces of evil don't abuse the hell out of it. And if the DM provides handy, portable protections against such things, why doesn't everyone have them? And if everyone does have them, why did we bother with this whole furshlinger arms race to begin with?

IMO, Teleport is the major culprit here. Scrying is found throughout fantasy literature (although I can't recall it ever being quite a reliable as the D&D version). D&D style Teleport Without Error, not so much. Outside of the old sit-com Bewitched and similar comedy fantasy shows, I can't think of many fantasy novels where the characters can casually teleport without error precisely to any spot on the globe they can think of. You can have instant distance transportation very easily without having long distance tactical teleportation. Just use portals/gates. Or have teleportation only work into prepared areas.