An errata for Warlocks?

[Jdvn1]

Pumping the EB through the sword is a cute trick for impressing the mooks, but how well do you think it will work against a Hill Giant? Would you dare find out?

Very true. The Warlock in our game was pretty ineffective for us -- we were playing at around 15th level, he had to worry about SR all the time, creatures would usually pass their saves, and he was constantly outclassed by the other classes. Maybe he didn't choose his invocations very well, but I don't know about that. I just know he was pretty weak.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yeah. But as he can't cast any spells with that caster level, he still must always use staff's CL.

Not strictly true.

When using a staff, you may:

Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

It doesn't matter what spells you can cast (or even if you cast any at all!). If you can activate the spell in the staff at all, you may use your caster level if it is better than that used by the staff.

 

[Shin Okada]

Not strictly true.

When using a staff, you may:



It doesn't matter what spells you can cast (or even if you cast any at all!). If you can activate the spell in the staff at all, you may use your caster level if it is better than that used by the staff.

So you mean a 20th-level cleric with magic domain can use his CL20 for cleric spells when using staffs with spells only on wizard spell list? Or, a 10h-level Drow Rogue who is using a staff with UMD skill can use his CL 10 for racial spell-like abilities?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So you mean a 20th-level cleric with magic domain can use his CL20 for cleric spells when using staffs with spells only on wizard spell list?

Is the spell actually on his own spell list? If not, he can't cast it at all. If it is, then his caster level is 20, and he may use that in place of the staff's caster level (which is a minimum of 8).

Or, a 10h-level Drow Rogue who is using a staff with UMD skill can use his CL 10 for racial spell-like abilities?

Does he have a caster level? Are the spells on his class list? Then yes.

 

[Terath Ninir]

I'm not so sure about that. You can use mithril plate as medium armor for purposes of determing if you have an arcane spell failure chance. However, that doesn't mean it's not still heavy armor for purposes of having the necessary feat to be able to use it without a penalty.

WotC very clearly disagrees with you there and I agree with them. If you have characters who are *partially* proficient with an armour type, you're starting to have rules of such anal complexity that you're starting to look like Chartmaster. No, I think you should either be proficient in armour or not. While the rules as written say otherwise, that way madness lies.

 

[Shin Okada]

Is the spell actually on his own spell list? If not, he can't cast it at all. If it is, then his caster level is 20, and he may use that in place of the staff's caster level (which is a minimum of 8).



Does he have a caster level? Are the spells on his class list? Then yes.

A character can have multiple set of CLs. A Drow Wizard 3/Bard 17 has CL 3 for wizard spells, CL 17 for Bard Spells, and CL 20 for his racial Spell-Like abilities.

In your interpretation, If that drow is using a staff is using a staff with Magic Missile, he can use CL of 20 right?

You may say that the rule text is not clearly stating to use the CL of the class which contains that spell. But the text is also not clearly saying which CL to use anyway. So maybe it is up to DM.

As a DM, I say he must use CL of 3 (or staff's CL), as his CL is 3 for that purpose.

 

[kigmatzomat]

So you mean a 20th-level cleric with magic domain can use his CL20 for cleric spells when using staffs with spells only on wizard spell list? Or, a 10h-level Drow Rogue who is using a staff with UMD skill can use his CL 10 for racial spell-like abilities?

IIRC the rules for the magic domain correctly, the 20th level cleric has a wizard CL of 10 for activating magical devices. In the case of a minimal magic missle staff (CL8) that would be worthwhile since it would spit out an extra missle per charge.

From the 3.5 SRD

Use a Wand: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.

Use a Scroll: If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).


Though it goes against my gut reaction, by the RAW drow Rogues would UMD to give themselves the staff's spell on their spell list and they and the warlock would have their best CL available. This means a 20HD drow rogue and a Warlock 20 would both be CL20 for purposes of activating staves, wands, and apparently even scrolls.

 

[RigaMortus]

She mentioned those and then pointed out that you might as well get iterative attacks with a weapon with so many abilities (or give it to the fighter so that he can get iterative). The other thing is that those abilities are expensive, and by the time you have them on your weapons, you can probably be doing a multiple-target blast shape instead.

1) I would hope that the fighter would have a better weapon to use anyway. If a party has more than 1 magic weapon, the fighter should be using the best one, and the Warlock would benefit from the extra one(s).

2) Abilities are expensive, if you buy them. Not every campaign is the same. We don't all play that you can "buy" new abilities for a weapon anytime you have the cash handy. Sometimes we have to use what we find (what the DM provides us with), and we can't always pick and choose the abilities of our weapons.

3) There are times where you can't make itterative attacks. In these instances, a magic weapon + Hideous Blow will come in handy for an extra umph of damage.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The biggest breaker has to be the fact that their blasts are touch attacks. Fireball is great, but it gives a save.

For half. Scorching ray is better, and it doesn't.

A second level rogue has a fair chance of being unharmed by a fireball

Yeah, but honestly now: how many opponents have evasion? If the answer is "most of them" then your wizard is being a bit stupid using this spell.

, but not a warlocks blast.

Yeah, I suppose his touch AC is just awful, what with that crappy dex and heavy armour...

Now, the warlock in my game has extended range on his blast, the ability to channel it through a weapon, and flight ( as well as the sight powers ). Now, his typical means of combat are:

Fly up into the air if outside, or to the ceilling if inside. Blast, blast again.. With a +5 dex modifer and his BAB, he pretty much cant miss against heavy armored opponents.

Ohhh, I get it. You're doing the warlock vs heavy armour, low dex opponents and the wizard vs rogues with evasion. No wonder the warlock is more effective. Interesting that the warlock has a dex of 20. Do any other party members have stats that come close?

And wizards get overland flight as a 5th level spell, so he can cast it at 9th. If all your opponents are too useless to deal with a flying foe, then I'd expect him to be casting it every day.

Now its a a low magic world, and I know that has a effect on it.. but still.

No it's not. It sounds like you've not got much of a clue what low magic means if you've got unmodified wizards and warlocks in the game. What you have is "it's a screw the non-magic classes world".

Also the fact that the warlock is running around with a +5 dex bonus is a point of bias towards him - high stats are much more important in a low magic game.

Also, hes using a touch attack, so has a chance to crit. Normally critical hits about twice a night ( unless hes up close and personal, using his rapier to really dish out some damage. )

Yawn. Like I've already said, the fighter does as much damage a hit as this guy, and crits more often.

Even a fighter isn't going to hit as often as he is, despite being able to do more damage.

Because you've crippled him by denying him normal magical equipment. No wonder you've got game balance problems.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Anthelios,

After pondering it over, I think the real underlying issue is you are running a low magic world and you have hit the middle levels. Any decently designed and well run pure spellcaster would starts to look frighteningly powerful compared to the Fighter if adjustments are not made.

If you are impressed with the Warlock, you would be absolutely shocked at what a Wizard or Psion could do in your low combat campaign. The Warlock is the most balanced against the Fighter.