An Exalted Hero With A Vile Judgment Of Good

[Bartmanhomer]

This topic may sound confusing but is it possible when a hero fight evil villains (and I do mean any type of villain) the hero was really going to kill the villain this badly, but however the villain wanted to spare his or her lives. But unfortunately the hero doesn't care and kill the villain anyway? It is really possible because not hero doesn't have this type of judgment.

 

[twofalls]

I think before we can address this topic the question needs to be cleaned up a little so that we understand what you are asking. It sounds to me like what you are asking is can a "good" character who is fighting an "evil villain" ignore the villain surrendering and pleading for it's life, and yet still be considered good. Perhaps even exalted good. The answer to that question is conditionally no.

The book of Exalted Deeds has this to say about mercy on page 7, second column, first paragraph, second and third sentences; "... Mercy means granting quarter to enemies who surrender and treating criminals and prisoners with compassion and even kindness. It is, in effect, the good doctrine of respect for life taken to its logical extreme - respecting and honoring even the life of one's enemy."

That being said, if a PC bursts into a villain in a village and finds him standing amidst corpses covered in the blood of the children of said village and engaging in mass infacide, if that PC went a little crazy and killed the villain and refused to accept quarter I'd probably not remove his exalted status. Rather he might have to confess his sins to a clergyman of his faith and seek absolution for his moment of righteous anger and vengeance.

That is of course up to the individual GM.

 

[GuardianLurker]

I'll differ in degree here. Assuming twofalls' final scenario, I'd remove the PCs Exalted Status, but not his good alignment. If a non-exalted good character did the same, there'd be no penalty at all. (in fact, depending on the amount of guilt and soul-searching the player put the character through, it might even open the door to exalted.)

 

[twofalls]

I'll differ in degree here. Assuming twofalls' final scenario, I'd remove the PCs Exalted Status, but not his good alignment. If a non-exalted good character did the same, there'd be no penalty at all. (in fact, depending on the amount of guilt and soul-searching the player put the character through, it might even open the door to exalted.)

So if a character was exalted, he'd loose his speical status, but if he wasn't he'd gain that status? Eh...? What am I missing here?

 

[Zappo]

So if a character was exalted, he'd loose his speical status, but if he wasn't he'd gain that status? Eh...? What am I missing here?

A great part of "being good" or "being evil" lies not in your actions, but in how you feel about those actions. Killing an enemy that has pleaded for mercy is one thing if it makes you feel guilty, and quite another if it makes you feel good. A character feeling intensely guilty about such an action could eventually realize that he could have spared the enemy, and thus start actively practicing mercy, and maybe eventually become exalted... while an exalted character killing his enemy and saying "and good riddance to you!" while he does it would lose his exalted status so quick that it'd burn up on reentry.

 

[Torm]

Then, there's the consideration of intent and consequence. If your hero just wants to kill the villain just to say, "So long, sucker!", then there's a problem. But if he is killing the villain because the villain, through its very existence, is a threat to a greater good, then he's okay.

Consider a scenario where an outsider has been brought through, and the presence of the outsider is ripping up the fabric of the cosmos, or it is the lynchpin holding the portal open and more outsiders - of a distinctly evil variety - are pouring out. The outsider doesn't understand where it is or what is going on, and goes on a killing spree out of that misunderstanding. The hero takes it down, and it begs mercy. The hero might still need to kill it if he can't get it to understand or cooperate.

 

[NexH]

I read the question differently, as in:
"If a villain, in case of winning a fight, will spare the life of the hero, can the hero still kill the villain if he is the one victorious?"

 

[twofalls]

I read the question differently, as in:
"If a villain, in case of winning a fight, will spare the life of the hero, can the hero still kill the villain if he is the one victorious?"

Well, the obvious answer is that he would spare the villan regardless if the villan spared him before or no.

A great part of "being good" or "being evil" lies not in your actions, but in how you feel about those actions. Killing an enemy that has pleaded for mercy is one thing if it makes you feel guilty, and quite another if it makes you feel good. A character feeling intensely guilty about such an action could eventually realize that he could have spared the enemy, and thus start actively practicing mercy, and maybe eventually become exalted... while an exalted character killing his enemy and saying "and good riddance to you!" while he does it would lose his exalted status so quick that it'd burn up on reentry.

I re-read Guardianlurkers post and thats not what he appears to be saying, though that might have been his intent. Only he could clarify. An Exalted character who killed the afore mentioned villan and then later regretted his mistake could atone for it and end up soul searching just as much as say a simple Neutral Good character would. In fact thats what I was intending to suggest with my first post by suggesting he might have to atone by speaking with a priest of a good faith.

If the Neutral Good character did the slaying, regretted his actions, and then started to behave in an exaulted manner then I can see the logic. I require my good PC's to play a character in an exaulted fashion for at least two consecutive PC levels before they can attain the status.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Well, the obvious answer is that he would spare the villan regardless if the villan spared him before or no.


I re-read Guardianlurkers post and thats not what he appears to be saying, though that might have been his intent. Only he could clarify.

Well, then let me clarify...

Zappo's analysis was essentially correct.

An Exalted character who killed the afore mentioned villan and then later regretted his mistake could atone for it and end up soul searching just as much as say a simple Neutral Good character would. In fact thats what I was intending to suggest with my first post by suggesting he might have to atone by speaking with a priest of a good faith.

Also true. And I thought about adding this, but decided it would muddy the water, which was apparently muddy enough anyway. Part of the problem also being how much atonement a fallen exalted character would need. All I can say for certain is that'd it'd probably be harder to regain exalted status than gain it - if regaining is even possible. "Once you have given in to the Dark Side, forever will it dominate your destiny."

If the Neutral Good character did the slaying, regretted his actions, and then started to behave in an exaulted manner then I can see the logic. I require my good PC's to play a character in an exaulted fashion for at least two consecutive PC levels before they can attain the status.

In my world it's a test - of sorts. The character has to do something demonstrating that he is a paragon of goodness, something inconvient, above and beyond his normal adventuring. Convincing a pair of mated yuppie black dragons who want the best life for their dragonnets that they should be raised by a good dragon definitely qualifies. (So would other lesser deeds, but that's the only situation that's actually arisen IMC. For the record, the players backed out.)

In Torm's situation, the exalted hero is screwed - exalted status (in my mind) does not take into account "extenuating circumstances", so it's bye-bye exalted status. Two points to consider though -
1) if I put such a situation IMC, there *would* be a solution that could/would preserve the character's exalted status. There's no guarantee that the character would discover it. I also wouldn't prohibit alternate solutions.
2) Playing an exalted character is *asking* to be put into those situations, even more than playing a paladin, in my mind. If you play an exalted character, you have voluntarily said "I (the player) am interested in exploring the full depths of morality."

 

[tkilburn]

Just a few cents worth with quotations. The Book of Exalted Deeds says fairly clearly in chapter one that murdering a surrendering foe is an evil act. It also details how to go about seeking redemption for that act.

Page 7, Mercy, Second Paragraph:

A good character must not succumb to that trap. Good characters must offer mercy and accept surrender no matter how many times villiains might betray that kindness or escape from captivity to continue their evil deeds.

Page 9, Ends and Means, Second Paragraph:

In the D&D universe, the fundamental answer is no, an evil act is an evil act no matter what good result it may achieve.

Page 11, Crime and Punishment, First Paragraph:

When fighting through a dungeon, characters needn't switch to subdual tactics when they suddenly encounter evil dwarf minions. But if those minions surrender, it is best to take the prisoners back to town to stand trial for their crimes.

I'd quote more, but it might be better to read that chapter in whole. Good characters should be held to a higher standard than their evil counterparts, and Exalted ones even more so. Basically any evil action, even if done with the best intentions, is still evil and is a concession to the dark forces.

Thankfully, good deities are as forgiving as they expect their followers to be. Page 20, Sin and Atonement, Second Paragraph:

The powers of good would be hypocritical if they demanded that mortals offer forgiveness to one another while themselves withholding it from mortals who displease them. Therein is the blessing and assurance that all good creatures can cling toL there is no sin so great that it cannot be forgiven.

There need to be actions to show repentance for the act as well as an unrelated good deed (or two) to show the character has rededicated herself to the good fight. Until then she loses her Exalted status.